Unwanted service assignment

Well, I'll just say that after talking to a friend of mine who is a current O-8 in the Navy that your son is best off listening to the advice of Jcleppe rather than aglages.
 
Well, I'll just say that after talking to a friend of mine who is a current O-8 in the Navy that your son is best off listening to the advice of Jcleppe rather than aglages.

Surprise!

+1 to Jcleppe's advice
 
Keep us updated. I hope that it works out for him, but be prepared for him to go nukes.
I don't know about Navy aviation, but in the AF you can apply for UPT up until your late twenties. It maybe that he will go off to subs at first, but picked up once AD. DSs class had several guys that were cross overs after being in their first assignment.
 
MY DS had a similar situation last year. He put aviation as 1st choice and subs 2nd. He scored top 5% on ASTB so I was certain he would go aviation. He got subs. He got all A"s in calculus and physics 800m sat but a finance major. They are looking for the students that can get thru nuke school which is very hard. DS is in his second month in Charleston which he loves and he is spending a lot of hours studying(must remain at school, cannot remove any materials from school). Your son will go to DC for a final selection interview. I know my sons week of interviews about 30% were failed for some reason. Not sure how the reassignment goes if you fail the interview but I heard they were short pilots. DS has made a lot of new friends from various nrotc units and USNA and is very happy to be there.
 
Can he switch to aviation for his next assignment? Does the Navy allow that?

My daughter told me the Coast Guard allows those who don't get a flight school billet for their first assignment can serve 2 years on a cutter and then switch to aviation and go to flight school and become a pilot,
 
Its called the nuke draft at the academy, several of the firsties in my company have SARB's coming up to basically try to force them to go nuke.
 
I am curious why they do the interviews when they do them. I get that not everyone is a fit for living in a sub(I know it would drive me crazy....not a fan of being in long tunnels) but why do they do them after they are already in academics, especially if they have 30% that do not get past the interview.

My pea brain just says to me that it would make sense to me that the interview would be step one.
 
"Needs of the service" is always the go-to comment for anyone to counter someone complaining about assignments or moves or time away from family.

But it probably should also be said that "needs of the service" is not some well thought out plan by each service. Some times it comes down to timing or luck. I would contend that "needs of the service" is responsible for a number of great people saying "screw it, I'm going somewhere that has a little more science behind its assignment process and a little more love for its people."

The "needs of the service" could come down to real needs and limitations of a service.... or it could come down to a lazy detailer or administrator. Either way, there's no feedback loop, so sailors or soldiers or airmen or Marines or Coast Guardsmen suffer as a result. And we try to distill it down to "needs of the service."

Welcome to the Navy, this is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, that America's second longest continuous sea-going service has screwed its peope. And the sad part is, its no different in the Army, Air Force, Marine Corps or Coast Guard. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't and that fact should be factored into your decision to serve or not.

Good luck with this process, I'm sure it's not fun and I hope for the best.
 
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My daughter told me the Coast Guard allows those who don't get a flight school billet for their first assignment can serve 2 years on a cutter and then switch to aviation and go to flight school and become a pilot,

Kind of. A flight school billet is like any other billet coming out of the Coast Guard Academy. Some people go to cutters, some go to flight school and some go to sectors. There are not enough flight school billets for everyone who would apply, so some will NOT get flight school.

So for cadets who don't get flight school, they have to find a different billet, such as a cutter spot. Those new officers are free to APPLY for a flight school billet, but it doesn't mean they'll get it. This isn't a "you didn't get flight school out of the academy so now we'll give it to you" kind of thing.... your competing for a flgiht school spot just like anyone else.

Of all the paths following graduation, going to a cutter is the least limiting. A junior officer leaving a cutter, fully qualified, could try to go to flight school, a sector, another cutter, grad school, or a staff assignment. Graduates who go directly to a sector are limited, basically to the land (or air) after that first assignment. Graduates who go to flight school and graduate are limited to air or land (for staff or grad school assignments).
 
Hornetrhinodad,

Sorry to hear about your son's disappointing news. No fun.


If it helps at all, I can tell you that at least back-in-the-day there used to be a real life quality difference based on the kind of sub you were on...

Boomers were pretty regular duty with a set schedule (alternating crews), and you could have a nice life with a lot of time ashore.

Fast Attacks were the rough ones. Often nicer boats with amenities but no regular schedule to count on. Even literally pulling into port only to turn around at the harbor entrance and head back out for one reason/crisis/whim or another.

Things certainly may have changed a lot now. But maybe if he crushes nuke school and sub school perhaps he can request one over the other?

In any case, thanks for your family's service.
 
I know little about the present climate of service selection priorities, however, I did go through an involuntary change of branch in the Navy many years ago and also observed what happened to a number of other fellows in the same situation. In that time, both aviation and subs wanted willing crews for obvious reasons and if you were vociferously against either of those branches, then your feelings were "honored" and you were sent to SWO whether you wanted it or not. My WA guess is that if your son *****es unmercifully he may not end up in subs but he may well end up on surface ships as a nuke.

The chances of him transferring to aviation later are slim to none. In order to be even considered for transferring he must have 2 things going for him, absolutely outstanding fitness reports in his nuke role AND the correct age and rank. They work against each other as after the extensive nuclear training, he has got to be on a sub/ship long enough to be seen as one of the top officers and recognized as such by his CO. The Navy will allow transfers for only its top performers, not the sad sacks with bad attitudes and poor performance.

When his transfer request comes, he cannot be too senior as new pilots need to be Ens and JGs not LCDRS otherwise the command structure in the squadron gets turned on its head. Also he becomes a more senior officer with minimum flight experience----not a good situation. Rank and experience must match. It has been done but only rarely and why the Navy allowed it in those cases remain lost to history. The first thing that has to be answered for the Navy is "Why should this transfer, after all this expensive training, be allowed? What better thing will happen for the Navy to do this?" Very hard question to answer.

Good luck to your son. May I make a modest prediction? He will go subs, be an outstanding officer, experience terrific adventures, love every bit of the responsibility, leave the Navy for an aerospace career and talk about his time on subs to any grandkid that will listen.
 
+1 Jcleppe.

DS is AROTC MS IV. Two years ago a cadet is his battalion, a business administration major, requested Quartermaster and she got Aviation. Huh!?!?!? The consensus among the cadets, including her, was that the Army wanted more females in aviation. I have no idea nor do I much care if they are correct or not. Mostly, I don't want DS to care.

Having seen this and other seemingly illogical assignments, he has seriously considered going reserve or national guard and going to grad school. I don't think he'll do it, but he is nonetheless taking a cold blooded, businesslike approach to his future, which is exactly what the Army is doing in his case or the Navy in the case of OP's DS.

In 1974, I told my DF (dear father) I didn't want to go ROTC because I didn't want to lose control of my future and I advised DS to consider that all the way up to the first day of classes sophomore year. From that point on he has assumed that whatever he loves, whatever he excels in, whatever he wants to do, is of little concern to those who decide his branch.

Thanks to the poster who said "grow where you're planted". I intend to use that line the next time I speak to him.
 
...just be firm that he isn't interested in Nukes. I don't believe they will FORCE him to go to nuke school.


Be careful here. Nothing wrong with asking "what can I do to get myself to aviation" ....., BUT I would discourage the above strategic tactic.

From the very very very beginning...from your Blue and Gold Officer interview and MOC interview to the large parent meeting at PPW it is drilled into you that the needs of the Navy come first. There are steps you can take to try to get where you want to be (power flight summer assignment vs mountain warfare summer assignment) but all-in-all, your son may want to consider fixing his thinking instead of fixing his problem, then the problem fixes itself.

and anyhow subs are pretty B.A.

http://www.navy.com/careers/nuclear-energy/submarine-warfare-nuclear/
 
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...your son may want to consider fixing his thinking instead of fixing his problem, then the problem fixes itself.

Another great quote. I'm going to hold that one in reserve.

Thanks Vista.
 
Second the above. As a USNA BGO, I always discuss with candidates the possibility that they won't end up with their preferred service selection. There are many reasons this can happen -- not standing high enough in the class, injury, performing poorly at Leatherneck and similar programs, and the ever-popular "needs of the Navy." I'm aware of personal examples in each of the above categories.

If you only want one service (e.g., subs, aviation) and will be miserable with anything else, consider whether you really want to be at a SA or ROTC.

It's terribly disappointing not to get what you want and, for those who have done well, what you "deserve." But it happens. And "needs of the Navy" or other service doesn't stop once you're commissioned/enlisted. Almost every military member (including me) will tell you of times when he/she was supposed to go there or do that -- and earned it -- but things changed due to needs of the military. Sometimes it works out for the better and other times it simply leaves the servicemember bitter.

Most learn to make the best of it or at least deal with it. Those who can't or won't . . . get out (when able).
 
As the jobs situation in the U.S. improves, the U.S. military services will have to reevaluate their approach to assignments and retention.

During a economic downturn, with people scrambling to find jobs, military recruiting and colleges have an advantage. When private sector jobs are available, the military has to do more to attract and retain good candidates.

The "select and direct" style for military and federal HR is neither efficient, nor constructive. The approach changes when America's future leaders aren't beating down the doors and choose to lead in other arenas.
 
I agree with Spud regarding flying but also disagree. Granted this is from an AF aviation perspective.

The big point I agree with him is in the whole picture aspect when it comes to switching how timing and age is going to be a factor. I know for our DS that just winged from AF UPT he had two or three that were second career assignments, and both were squeaking in at the age limit.

This was the same for the entire time Bullet was ADAF. I don't recall anyone getting it two years out from commissioning. Mainly because the base Wing King had to support them and this played a factor. They can't release every applicant that applies because that impacts their ability to do the mission they must fulfill. Thus, they start looking at them and age is an issue. If they were meeting the last board before the age clock matters they usually were given the you are my number 1 choice.

Between my two guys and twenty plus years difference it appears to me, at least anecdotally it hasn't change. OBTW, DSs college friend that went Maintenance (opted it in ROTC) and now she is trying for UPT, but basically she has been told don't expect to be picked up on the first board, you are only 24, there are guys that are 27 and their clock is ticking.

Here's where I part ways. The slim to none chances
I have a ton of retired AF pilot friends and if this was 2008/10/12 I would agree, BUT starting last year every Commercial airline company, be it SouthWest or FedEx has come out and stated in 5 years they will be hiring at an insane rate.
~ Remember after 9/11 they basically stopped hiring and did a lot of furloughing. The majority of pilots have military experience . Many of them will enter at 42 after 20 years of service, thus if you do the arithmetic they are @ 55 and this pace is going to go on for probably 10 years.
~~~ Our close friend is a SouthWest captain, when he saw our DS after he got the 130J the first words out of his mouth was, Welcome to SWA! We all laughed, but there was truth in the statement. DS could turn down the pilot bonus and bolt at 33.

When you as an outsider read about pilot shortage, the Navy and AF are well aware of how that will be very enticing and pilots will leave creating a vacuum. This occurred in the AF after the 93 RIF and they started throwing everything to get more in the pilot pipeline....age waivers, retention bonuses, speeding up promotion boards with higher % of rated being selected. The AF now offers a $225k bonus to fighter pilots if they stay until 19 years. 50% up front, remaining 112.5 split over 8 years or @14k every October and flight pay would be an additional 10k. Not too snappy.
~ AF has according to reports below 60% takers currently! That is an :eek: for them.

Just saying I can see it change from slim to none to a good chance, but I don't see that getting a UPT slot in 2 years as a good chance because if you go back all the way in this long post you need Command support and if they are nonvoling into sub's, that means they need them to meet the mission. It comes down to which career field need them more. UPT is 2 plus years just to winging.
 
hornetrhinodad: Obviously the final decision on how he wants to "handle" this is up to your son. He could, as many here have suggested....just go with the flow and "bloom where he's planted". Probably the easiest course of action and very easy advice to give if you or your son/daughter aren't in the same position as yours.

If your son does NOT get an aviation billet....what are his future Navy career plans? If regardless of what job the Navy assigns him, if he is determined to make a career in the Navy...he probably should not rock the boat and just meekly take the nuke assignment. If on the other hand.....the only way he is going to make a career out of the Navy is if he goes Aviation....then he should make it clear that is his choice. Supposedly 20% fail the pre-nuke interviews....a smart young man might be able to be one of those 20%. Will that ensure he gets Aviation? Nope. Might it hurt his chances in the future of getting Aviation? Probably. But IMHO if he doesn't get Aviation BEFORE he goes to nuke school....he won't get it after the Navy invests all the nuke training costs in him and he is in a critical field. JMPO
 
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hornetrhinodad: Obviously the final decision on how he wants to "handle" this is up to your son. He could, as many here have suggested....just go with the flow and "bloom where he's planted". Probably the easiest course of action and very easy advice to give if you or your son/daughter aren't in the same position as yours.

If your son does NOT get an aviation billet....what are his future Navy career plans? If regardless of what job the Navy assigns him, if he is determined to make a career in the Navy...he probably should not rock the boat and just meekly take the nuke assignment. If on the other hand.....the only way he is going to make a career out of the Navy is if he goes Aviation....then he should make it clear that is his choice. Supposedly 20% fail the pre-nuke interviews....a smart young man might be able to be one of those 20%. Will that ensure he gets Aviation? Nope. Might it hurt his chances in the future of getting Aviation? Probably. But IMHO if he doesn't get Aviation BEFORE he goes to nuke school....he won't get it after the Navy invests all the nuke training costs in him and he is in a critical field. JMPO

Honestly, you have been giving poor advice on this topic. Letting your chain of command within the unit know is one thing. Advising a cadet who didnt get their first choice of branch to hold out or make waves within the big Navy is an entirely different issue. All these young men and women who are going to be future officers need to learn sooner rather than later that the military is going to involve unpleasant assignments. You wont always be doing what you want to do. You can make the best of it and drive on, or flail about and try and change an inevitable outcome. Advising a cadet to do the latter is disingenuous.
 
Had my DS check with the senior Navy options in his battalion. They know of no appeal process. They confirmed there is an interview process for Nuke officers.

There was discussion around purposely "failing" the interview and whether that would be a successful tactic. They had anecdotes where it worked but also others where it didn't.

The prevailing opinion amongst the midshipmen he spoke to was that successfully moving from the Nuke to the Aviation community at a later date was not very likely.
 
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