USAFA Cheating Scandal

[scoutpilot]

No I'm very sure of the Honor Code and the Honor System. I gave you the Honor System Guide. Your wrong! Your just trying to get me to say that falconfamily is wrong instead of you being wrong. YOUR WRONG! If you mistakenly followed someone else's wrong information to make your weak argument, that's on you. You should verify your fact before you use them in YOUR argument. Your just as bad as the reporters in the press who use false facts to make a news story. ScoutPilot your wrong and you do not understand how the USAFA Honor System works.

Again, I'll ask (since you claim to know the honor system): multiple claims on this thread from others who claim to know the honor system state that a cadet who ADMITS his honor violation after being caught has his offense reviewed at the Squadron level. True or False? And if false, why not correct all those claims? Or is it not false?

What's your involvement with this? It's always interesting when someone joins a forum over one thread.

FYI, there's a difference between "you're" and "your."

 

[LineInTheSand]

What's your involvement with this? It's always interesting when someone joins a forum over one thread.

Ding ding ding. You are correct.

 

[MemberLG]

Straw man? The USAFA honor Code defines it! If there are different punishments for cheating, obviously there are different degrees of cheating, and clearly some cheating is not as bad as other cheating.

Evidence - Some who cheat get disenrolled, some who cheat get remediation.

Therefore, what other conclusion can you come to other than "there are degrees of cheating" and that some instances of cheating ("severe cheating") are punished by disenrollment while "mild cheating" gets remediation.

Spin it.

Can't speak for AFA and any recent changes; but when I was a cadet when a cadet was charged with an honor code violation, the cadet appeared before an Honor board. The Honor board made of the cadet's peers, heard the case, deliberated, and made a recommendation.

So for the alleged honor violation that occured at AFA, if AFA had a similiar process as I mentioned above, some will get separated and some will not get separated. The reason is not because there is a different level of cheating but rather the Honor Board made a determination.

So, you see it as disenrollment/remediation as a "different degree of cheating"

I see it as disenrollment/remediation as a different decision by the Honor Board (I am assuming that the remediation decision made by the Honor board. This discussion is too long for me the backtrack, but for me I have no issue with an Honor board making the decision to remediate. I disagree if the remediation is based on some administrative or judgement call, a case not being heard by the Honor Board.

 

[Bullet]

Ugh, nearly 20 pages of this garbage, degenerating into mostly Ivory Tower Monday Morning QB'ing and ad hominem attacks.

Don't all you people have something better to do, at places just a little closer to your (correct usage, so I hope that makes you feel better) pay level, and with just a little more inside knowledge than internet speculation?

Sheesh.....

 

[scoutpilot]

Ugh, nearly 20 pages of this garbage, degenerating into mostly Ivory Tower Monday Morning QB'ing and ad hominem attacks.

Don't all you people have something better to do, at places just a little closer to your (correct usage, so I hope that makes you feel better) pay level, and with just a little more inside knowledge than internet speculation?

Sheesh.....

Don't you have something better to do than tell other people what to talk about?!

 

[Bullet]

Don't you have something better to do than tell other people what to talk about?!

Nah, took a day off of work to clean up after a family gathering this weekend. Figured I take a break and see what was up on here. Didn't expect a 20 page nonsensical food fight.

You all carry on, if you wish. I going back to picking up trash (sort of like half the stuff on this thread)!

 

[raimius]

Straw man? The USAFA honor Code defines it! If there are different punishments for cheating, obviously there are different degrees of cheating, and clearly some cheating is not as bad as other cheating.

Evidence - Some who cheat get disenrolled, some who cheat get remediation.

Therefore, what other conclusion can you come to other than "there are degrees of cheating" and that some instances of cheating ("severe cheating") are punished by disenrollment while "mild cheating" gets remediation.

Spin it.

...using the internet to get the answers during a difficult calculus test is "just a little bit of cheating," not a real biggie, therefore not worthy of disenrollment.

This is the strawman. If it were not worthy of disenrollment, they wouldn't be sending cadets through the honor process (Wing Honor Boards or sanctions panels for those who admitted). Those who admitted or are found guilty will face potential disenrollment, unless they are allowed to go through remediation and pass. As has been stated, some cadets will not be offered the choice, and others may.
_________

Honor Probation at USAFA is fairly similar to what USNA1985 describes (and you can review the handbook that has been posted for specifics)

__________

Again, I'll ask (since you claim to know the honor system): multiple claims on this thread from others who claim to know the honor system state that a cadet who ADMITS his honor violation after being caught has his offense reviewed at the Squadron level. True or False? And if false, why not correct all those claims? Or is it not false?

False.
In that situation, a cadet will go to a sanctions review panel, as described in the handbook that has been posted.

 

[falconfamily]

I think I have already responded to this

Scoutpilot, I may have stated that in a way that would lead you to think that. If so, I apologize.

Let me say this once again. I apologize for stating this in a manner that would have led scoutpilot to believe a sanctions panel was people from the same squadron or is some sort of squadron level construct. Can we please move on?

 

[Christcorp]

So what I hear YOU saying is that IF any AFA Cadet is found guilty by the honor board in this case of cheating then you will fully support their dismissal?
Just looking to clarify this as I didn't notice this clarification; or would you support remediation in (at least) some cases?

I will support whatever the academy deems appropriate. The academy may determine that for some individuals, there was nothing ambiguous about the instructions and they knew exactly what they were doing. And the academy chooses to separate this individual. They may feel similar to the individual who is not on their first offense for other actions, and they dismiss them. On the other hand, they may determine that another class of students; (Not all of them have the same teacher and advisors); were given a little more ambiguous instructions, and did not intentionally cheat. They may have an individual that has had an exemplary record; 3.9+gpa; superb performance; etc... and that this behavior is inconsistent with that individual's performance and that there room for doubt of intent.

All of the previous comments are "Hypothetical" so please don't try and question those. I won't waste my time debating "What ifs" with anyone. Point is, was, and will always be: The academy knows, or will know, all the available facts. I, you, nor anyone else on this forum is privy to that information. And no matter how much we are bored by repeated questions of: "Did they cheat or not; yes or no"? The truth is; we don't know the particulars of each individual. The air force already said it wasn't collusion. That each individual involved is so on their own accord. So, if the academy chooses to dismiss an individual; then I support that. If the academy chooses remediation for an individual; then I support that too. I support both decisions because each of these individuals are individuals; the academy has all the facts and we don't; the academies have been dealing with these and similar infractions for many years; and the academy and air force ultimately knows what's best for all concerned, the academy, and the military as a whole. They know a lot better than anyone here does. And that's why I support whatever decision(s) they make.

 

[MemberLG]

Nah, took a day off of work to clean up after a family gathering this weekend. Figured I take a break and see what was up on here. Didn't expect a 20 page nonsensical food fight.

You all carry on, if you wish. I going back to picking up trash (sort of like half the stuff on this thread)!

Somone's trash is another person's treasure and vice versa.

What makes SAs and some military colleges different from civilian colleges is the honor code. I am reasonably sure SAs and some military colleges have more students being separated for an honor code violation than civilian colleges.

What I hoped to convey was that the honor code is just more than "a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do."

 

[EDelahanty]

Thanks to whoever very nicely posted the link. I wonder which is harder: writing the journal entries or reading them

3.4.4.2.4.2. Journal. During remediation, cadets keep a journal in which they organize their thoughts and ideas.
3.4.4.2.4.2.1. In Honor Probation, each cadet is required to make a journal entry at least every two to three days. In Honor Rehabilitation, each cadet is required to write a journal entry twice a week; each entry must be written at least two days apart.
3.4.4.2.4.2.2. These entries must be about honor, integrity, morals,
or values. The journal should have a descriptive and a reflective portion.
3.4.4.2.4.2.2.1. The descriptive portion should relate activities/experiences relevant to remediation, such as things highlighting professional values.
3.4.4.2.4.2.2.2. The reflective portion is very intense. Cadets typically go through a process where they delve deep within their psyche and examine
their personal value system and its foundation. They examine what they see as their current level of integrity in comparison to the level of integrity they believe is required of an officer, and how to close the gap between the two.
3.4.4.2.4.2.3. Each entry must be at least one-third of a page, single-spaced, and typed in 12 pitch Times New Roman font with one inch margins. Each entry must be numbered and dated.

 

[Luigi59]

So, if the academy chooses to dismiss an individual; then I support that. If the academy chooses remediation for an individual; then I support that too.

In other words, The Academy is infallible.

Their judgement can never be challenged nor questioned, and whatever they do, whenever they do it, should be accepted without any reservations, questions, or condemnations because, after all, they are The Academy.

Wow. Scary thoughts indeed.

They may have an individual that has had an exemplary record; 3.9+gpa; superb performance; etc... and that this behavior is inconsistent with that individual's performance and that there room for doubt of intent.

Or the cadet can run a 4.4 and average 5 yards per carry.

Lets hope that is not the case, although if it is, will support it because, after all, The Academy made the decision?

 

[DevilDog]

In other words, The Academy is infallible.

Their judgement can never be challenged nor questioned, and whatever they do, whenever they do it, should be accepted without any reservations, questions, or condemnations because, after all, they are The Academy.

Wow. Scary thoughts indeed.



Or the cadet can run a 4.4 and average 5 yards per carry.

Lets hope that is not the case, although if it is, will support it because, after all, The Academy made the decision?

It sounds to me like your judgement can't be questioned even though you definitely do not know all the facts.

 

[Bullet]

In other words, The Academy is infallible.

Their judgement can never be challenged nor questioned, and whatever they do, whenever they do it, should be accepted without any reservations, questions, or condemnations because, after all, they are The Academy.

Wow. Scary thoughts indeed.

Just when I thought I was done dealing with the garbage today, along comes this gem.

Do we think that the judgement of the service academies should never be challenged or questioned, Luigi? Well, frankly no.

But I'm with the majority on this one. I'd rather let the Academy leadership, with perhaps over 200+ combined years in leadership in the military and judgement on how to handle its people, who hold their first and foremost duty in these institutions sacred, to produce future generations of leaders for the security of America (and note I said produce, these kids don't show up on Day 1 as the perfect leader already, they make mistakes. Mistakes that need leadership and mentoring to correct), who will ensure ALL information about the situation is discovered and assessed before they meet in deliberations to use that judgement and knowledge to ensure they ARE doing what is best for this country and their service, and have a little more intimate knowledge of the proper procedures and guidance than most here...

Well, I'd rather let them take the lead on this one, and trust they will get it right BEFORE I spout off on how they will get it all wrong.

Or, we could just go with the instant judgement of anonymous posters on the inter-webby-thingy.

Silly me, I'll take the former......

 

[scoutpilot]

Just when I thought I was done dealing with the garbage today, along comes this gem.

Do we think that the judgement of the service academies should never be challenged or questioned, Luigi? Well, frankly no.

But I'm with the majority on this one. I'd rather let the Academy leadership, with perhaps over 200+ combined years in leadership in the military and judgement on how to handle its people, who hold their first and foremost duty in these institutions sacred, to produce future generations of leaders for the security of America (and note I said produce, these kids don't show up on Day 1 as the perfect leader already, they make mistakes. Mistakes that need leadership and mentoring to correct), who will ensure ALL information about the situation is discovered and assessed before they meet in deliberations to use that judgement and knowledge to ensure they ARE doing what is best for this country and their service, and have a little more intimate knowledge of the proper procedures and guidance than most here...

Well, I'd rather let them take the lead on this one, and trust they will get it right BEFORE I spout off on how they will get it all wrong.

Or, we could just go with the instant judgement of anonymous posters on the inter-webby-thingy.

Silly me, I'll take the former......

I'm extremely interested in this inter-webby-thingy of which you speak...

 

[Luigi59]

Just when I thought I was done dealing with the garbage today, along comes this gem.

Just when I thought I was done dealing with the USAFA apologists, along comes this gem.

Garbage? So anyone who disagrees with your opinion is labeled garbage?

Nice.

I'd rather let the Academy leadership, with perhaps over 200+ combined years in leadership in the military and judgement on how to handle its people, who hold their first and foremost duty in these institutions sacred, to produce future generations of leaders for the security of America (and note I said produce, these kids don't show up on Day 1 as the perfect leader already, they make mistakes. Mistakes that need leadership and mentoring to correct), who will ensure ALL information about the situation is discovered and assessed before they meet in deliberations to use that judgement and knowledge to ensure they ARE doing what is best for this country and their service, and have a little more intimate knowledge of the proper procedures and guidance than most here...

Everyone should question a system that allows cheaters to remain at a an institution that supposedly has an Honor Code that disallows cheating.

Or, we could just go with the instant judgement of anonymous posters on the inter-webby-thingy.

Or we could just accept whatever they decide to do because everything The Academy does, says, or acts upon is Beyond Repraoch and/or comment by anyone not inside The Academy.

Silly me, I'll take the former......

Silly me, but such complete acceptance (blind faith?) in any system subject to human fallibility is illogical.

If you believed they cheated, and I think you do - would you want them to stay?

Apparently, yes.

And apparently those who disagree and want to see the cheaters removed should not voice that opinion on an inter-webby-thingy, lest they and there opinions be labeled "garbage."

 

[Bullet]

The leadership of each Academy is responsible for their actions and decisions to:

1) The service they are charged to produce future leaders for. This usually falls directly in the lane of their Service Chiefs

2) The SecDEF

3) Their civilian leadership, either through Congress or the Office of the President.

Notice your name isn't on this list.

All you are adding is speculation about how you see the situation. It's rude, it's disgusting, and it's unbecoming, as you are NOT involved in the process.

Will someone question the USAFA's actions? Sure, and they were mentioned in my list above. Don't like it? Run for office then and kill Academy athletics to your hearts content.....

 

[bruno]

You know - while I am somewhat loath to interrupt the various soliloquies that this thread has degenerated into, and indeed always appreciate the theatrics that goes along with many posters, perhaps we could move in a somewhat different tack?
Instead of telling us what the USAFA "must" do here- I would like to hear your justification for treating an honor violation as substantively different than any other serious conduct offense?

While I personally believe that the single sanction (ie: dismissal) is the right approach for someone found on an honor violation, but that's based on my experiences first having lived under that system and then about 20 years of experience as a military officer. However, I also am cognizant that others may have a different experience and point of view so I would like to hear why you think it should be always treated either with dismissal, or conversely why you think that "remediation" is a valid approach? Given that many of you have expressed such strong opinions on a case which is still being adjudicated- surely you must have some well thought out reasons for those opinions based on your observations and experiences as a cadet/midshipman or as a military member that you can articulate in a reasonable manner? One or two of you have started down this path on this thread but have been drowned out ( we are up to around 200 posts so you are kind of buried in there somewhere.) So I would like to hear your thoughts on why you believe what you do.

 

[usna1985]

Agree with Bruno. This is a legitimate topic for discussion but the conversation needs to be about the issues themselves and not degenerate into attacks against the views of others.

 

[JaxFalcon]

Just my two cents as a rising firstie and fall squadron commander. Part of the honor code is the fact that not everybody gets kicked out when they violate the honor code. If a person admits, it goes to a CSRP and the CSRP makes a recommendation on whether or not to retain the cadet. If the person does not admit, then it goes to an honor board and they can either find that person guilty or not guilty. If that person is found guilty at an honor board, it is much more likely they will get kicked out as it is viewed as though they lied multiple times when given the chance to admit to their transgression. By retaining cadets who violate the honor code and admit to doing so, I do not believe we as a cadet wing, nor permanent party leadership are "tolerating" lying, stealing, or cheating. The person is being punished for their transgressions and has to go through a six month long probation which also includes being stripped of rank and marked out for making a mistake. I know many cadets who have violated the honor code and turned out to become outstanding cadets and leaders. As was pointed out, this past year's Wing Honor Chairperson was placed on honor probation as a freshman. He graduated as a DG and has a scholarship to attend Harvard University in the fall. Tolerating would be allowing these cadets off scotch free with no punishment. Those who are retained and put on probation will have a long six months ahead of them, and not all of them will complete it. The squadron has pretty much no say in whether or not a person is retained. So the idea that the squadron makes a recommendation, is false. The only time a squadron makes a recommendation for anything is during a SCRB which is usually due to military deficiency. Squadron commanders and upper leadership may have to make a recommendation to the AOC and the CSRP on whether or not a cadet should be retained or expelled in regards to honor. But the CSRP does not always listen to the squadron commander's recommendation. I have had to fill out a few recommendations regarding this exact instance to my AOC, and not all of my recommendations were necessarily the same. If a cadet is on conduct and aptitude probation and then gets an honor hit, I am less likely to recommend them for retainment. Whereas a cadet who has been stellar in other areas and has never had a problem, I might recommend they be retained. Just becuase their retained however, does not mean they are getting off as I have previously stated. It honestly amazes me that some people are so quick to judge and think that if you are found in violation there should be no probation and all cadets should be kicked out. Also, as an intercollegiate athlete myself, I do not believe these cadets are being given preferential treatment because they are athletes. I have not heard anything about the majority of them being athletes, but it is highly likely that there are some just given the number of ICs in the freshman class. This is just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.