Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

[Blueblood1]

When I heard about the wash out rate and learned how much more difficult it is, I began to wonder whats the point when there is no difference upon entry into the military.
[/QUOTE]

ROTC and Academy now commission at the same rank. What seems to vary more than anything is timing. I recently dropped an RMO on a couple recent ROTC grads who just got their bars and we talked over a couple of beers. Both great kids and both got their first choices in duty -- one off to flight school; the other, intelligence. The flight school candidate was deferred for almost a year, so gets a really nice long summer vacation. He had tried twice to get into USAFA and then went the ROTC route- and still got his dream. The other kid was shipping out 35 days after his graduation and, well let's say he seemed to get the most out of his college life and still headed where he wanted to go.

Through Captain, they will be on some promotion schedule as well. ROTC commissions and opportunities, however, seem to be more variable at least from my limited vantage point. For example, if you want to fly, USAFA has an extremely high acceptance rate. ROTC can vary from year to year based on applicant pool and the "needs of the air force" (you will hear that phrase a lot over a military career). But, as the kid mentioned above, he did well in school, scored high in his military training and tests, and he is off to flight school as well.

As a private sector employer, I can tell you that military goes to the top of my "to interview" pile; Academy grads, to the top of that pile -- but I am biased and cannot tell you if that is of any general relevance.

The life style is the other major difference. Except for some summer stints and some weekends, you have essentially a normal college life in ROTC. At USAFA, you have a uniquely SA life. I have a C4C now, and she wanted the SA life and really had no interests in beer busts, sorority life, four day weekends, etc. I have an older daughter that cannot even fathom how anyone could be so disciplined all the time to handle Academy life.

Ther is no right answer applicable to all -- it is uniquely up to the individual. My gut tells me that the Academy makes it a bit easier to get to some doors, but all those doors are still open for ROTC commissions and USAFA commissions.

 

[Badge250]

MombaBomba said: ↑
BTW, up until my son started to look into attending the USAFA, I had always thought that academy grads commissioned at a higher level than ROTC.

So, in our present day, we can say that a USAFA graduate and graduate from XYZ University ROTC that commissions, do so at the same level, rank, expectations, pay, etc, etc. But the big advantage is the 100% commissioning rate of USAFA (with that one little detail: IF you get that far and graduate). USAFA: fewer get in but all the graduates commission/ROTC: more get in but not all the graduates commission. Seems to me neither are easy and each path has its unique challenges therefore should be respected equally as a 2nd Lieutenant and judged by their performance from there on out. Please correct any misunderstandings I may have as I am not from a military background.

 

[MombaBomba]

MombaBomba said: ↑
BTW, up until my son started to look into attending the USAFA, I had always thought that academy grads commissioned at a higher level than ROTC.

So, in our present day, we can say that a USAFA graduate and graduate from XYZ University ROTC that commissions, do so at the same level, rank, expectations, pay, etc, etc. But the big advantage is the 100% commissioning rate of USAFA (with that one little detail: IF you get that far and graduate). USAFA: fewer get in but all the graduates commission/ROTC: more get in but not all the graduates commission. Seems to me neither are easy and each path has its unique challenges therefore should be respected equally as a 2nd Lieutenant and judged by their performance from there on out. Please correct any misunderstandings I may have as I am not from a military background.

Seems we are both learning along the way. I am finally starting to get a handle on the abbreviations and acronyms I see here. Though I have to admit, there are posts I still need to read a couple of times in order to understand them. Sometimes my son starts tossing in acronyms and other lingo when he calls, and I must remind him to speak "civilian" with me.

 

[Stealth_81]

Sometimes my son starts tossing in acronyms and other lingo when he calls, and I must remind him to speak "civilian" with me.

Eventually you'll learn them and start to talk back your son in the same acronyms and then one day you'll catch yourself telling one of your friends when they ask about your son: "Junior started FLUG last week so his CO is letting him fly twice a day for the UTA so that he can get it done and start IPUG before his PCS". And your friend will just stare at you......

To add to the discussion, the success of USAFA or ROTC grads is definitely an individual thing. My son had a blast at USAFA and would never do anything differently. Once they are in the active AF the commissioning source fades in everyone's memory pretty quickly. Immediately after getting to his first unit my son tended to hang with the USAFA guys that he knew, but that went away soon and everyone gets along.

A good story about meeting up with former cadre: My son had one cadre his Doolie year who was not a great example of leadership and my son didn't care for him, but he dealt with it. Fast forward to UPT and that cadre is now an instructor in the T-38. Son dealt with him again and found that his leadership qualities had not improved much. Fast forward another year and that former cadre member has finished his FAIP assignment and is now in the same Viper B-Course class as my son. Son said it never felt so good as when he beat his former cadre and IP at flights and scores throughout the B-Course. Note: they are still good friends to this day. Just a reminder that the AF is a very small world and many people will continue to pop up throughout your career.

Stealth_81

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

Note: they are still good friends to this day. Just a reminder that the AF is a very small world and many people will continue to pop up throughout your career.

Stealth_81

Or even on service academy forums!

 

[aggie83]

Something to factor in is all the opportunities available to you at the Academy. Our son did the following (all paid for by the USAFA):

1. Summer after freshman year - Freefall Jump training; Combat Survival Training for 3 wks
2. Summer after sophomore year - language immersion for 3 wks. in Chile; 3 wks. at Luke AFB with ride in F-16 on a bomb dropping training mission
3. Summer after junior year - 3 wks. working at the U.S. Embassy in San Jose, Costa Rica
4. Fall semester of his sr. year - did exchange semester at the Spain Air Force Academy (on the Mediterranean)
5. Learned to fly gliders
6. Took Powered Flight
7. Rode in an HH-60 Combat Search and Rescue helo
8. Rode in a C-130 from COS to a AF football game
9. Got a Bachelor of Science and a minor in Spanish
10. Should have gotten a minor in snowskiing and mountain Jeeping - haha

I am sure I am forgetting many things that were offered during the school year. I am also sure there are ROTC opportunities as well but the above were easily obtained when attending the AFA. Sure he paid his dues vs. ROTC but he got ALOT in exchange. BTW - he still had on a Texas A&M ballcap when we went to visit him at his base this weekend

His senior year he made a list of pros/cons of ROTC at A&M or USAFA. He had always wanted to fly in the military (not civilian) so I think it really came down to where he thought he had the best shot at a pilot slot. He really struggled with making a decision. However, when that LOA from the Academy came in early Oct., I came home to see his truck with the Aggie sticker scraped off and the USAFA one prominantly displayed...still hoping for him to get a Masters from A&M

Let me end by saying that this is not a for or against posting. In fact, I have a nephew that graduated AF ROTC from A&M that is close to being a Major, flies an F-16, attended Weapons school for the F-16 and was selected to go back and be an instructor at Weapons school. Those with a military background know that speaks for itself. He is doing extremely well. If he stays in, I fully expect he will be a general one day. Great young man. This posting was simple to put out an example of the many opportunities that our son was fortunate to have while at the AFA.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

Aggie83, you are so right. My DD just finished up her first year and one of the things she got to do (as part of the Cadet Chorale) was sing at the Japanese Consulate for the Emperor (his birthday)! The Chorale was invited back at a later date for a full course Japanese dinner as a thank you. It was an experience she'll never forget!

 

[Non Ducor Duco]

Something to factor in is all the opportunities available to you at the Academy. Our son did the following (all paid for by the USAFA):

1. Summer after freshman year - Freefall Jump training; Combat Survival Training for 3 wks
2. Summer after sophomore year - language immersion for 3 wks. in Chile; 3 wks. at Luke AFB with ride in F-16 on a bomb dropping training mission
3. Summer after junior year - 3 wks. working at the U.S. Embassy in San Jose, Costa Rica
4. Fall semester of his sr. year - did exchange semester at the Spain Air Force Academy (on the Mediterranean)
5. Learned to fly gliders
6. Took Powered Flight
7. Rode in an HH-60 Combat Search and Rescue helo
8. Rode in a C-130 from COS to a AF football game
9. Got a Bachelor of Science and a minor in Spanish
10. Should have gotten a minor in snowskiing and mountain Jeeping - haha

I am sure I am forgetting many things that were offered during the school year. I am also sure there are ROTC opportunities as well but the above were easily obtained when attending the AFA. Sure he paid his dues vs. ROTC but he got ALOT in exchange. BTW - he still had on a Texas A&M ballcap when we went to visit him at his base this weekend

His senior year he made a list of pros/cons of ROTC at A&M or USAFA. He had always wanted to fly in the military (not civilian) so I think it really came down to where he thought he had the best shot at a pilot slot. He really struggled with making a decision. However, when that LOA from the Academy came in early Oct., I came home to see his truck with the Aggie sticker scraped off and the USAFA one prominantly displayed...still hoping for him to get a Masters from A&M

Let me end by saying that this is not a for or against posting. In fact, I have a nephew that graduated AF ROTC from A&M that is close to being a Major, flies an F-16, attended Weapons school for the F-16 and was selected to go back and be an instructor at Weapons school. Those with a military background know that speaks for itself. He is doing extremely well. If he stays in, I fully expect he will be a general one day. Great young man. This posting was simple to put out an example of the many opportunities that our son was fortunate to have while at the AFA.

No school is an expert in everything. The academies are very good schools for many different degrees, but there are also many civilian schools that exceed them in X major. The best thing to do is to go to the school that fits you best. There are many cool opportunities readily given at the academy, but similarly great opportunites draw ROTC cadets to other universities. Here's the college schedule of a cadet from my Detatchment for comparison (I know many cadet who have similar resumes):

Cadet B goes to a top 5 engineering school studying X engineering, participates in a fraternity, works with the school research institute, and regularly plays intramurals. So far this cadet has spent 9 weeks in Russia and another 9 weeks in Lithuania (all paid for by the DoD/AF), been to AF Field Training (month long critical event/evaluation for AFROTC cadets), and is just finishing an internship with Boeing. I cadets who've interned with Lockheed Martian, Delta, one guy works on satellites...there are so many things a motivated person can do with the extra weeks academy cadets don't get.

The big difference I think with ROTC and an academy:
AFA: At the academy you're told what to do and when to do it for most of your time there. Everything is regimented, it's a smaller school so there are many resources if you're having issues and the teachers generally care about you. They take a lot out of their paycheck for the first year or so, but the paycheck contracted ROTC cadets is still a fraction of that and tuition, fees, room & board, meals are all paid for. At the academy they have so many cool training opportunities that are not available in ROTC or anywhere else, I was recently able to attend ESET up there and got to learn more about cadet life. There's the pride and tradition of the 'Long Blue Line'. It's tough to get into and takes real motivation to continue.

ROTC: You're dealing with all the new stresses civilian students have. Paying for tuition, fees, leasing a place to live, taking out loans, figuring out your meals. If you're going to a big name university there's the added issue of class difficulty, going from the top of your class to being in classrooms with geniuses, not know if you can hack it (all the same issues academy cadets deal with). If you're on scholarship you get a small stipend meant to keep cadets from having to get jobs (many do anyway). Time management and scheduling is key. You're getting up at 0'dark thirty to go to PT while your roommate sleeps in. No one is there to watch what you do 24/7, either you do what your supposed to do or you don't. Personally I have a 30 minute commute and prefer morning classes so I wake up at 0500 every morning, 0400 on PT days, and often don't get back home until 2130 because of all the EC's and the sport I play. With a civi school you can do research, co-op, do semesters abroad, but there are fewer military training opportunities. ROTC is easy get into, but scholarships are hard to get and Enrollment Allocations to Field Training range from competitive to highly competitive. Only 60% of my year group got slots to FT. If you don't get a slot you can repeat your 2nd year of ROTC (if the cadre allow it) or you'll be shown the door. No STEM major below a 3.0 gpa and no non-Tech major below a 3.4 at my Det got a slot. Generally you're safe once you get to your 3rd year, but like the academy we live in a 1 strike you're out atmosphere. We had 2 at our det go through their entire 4 years and then were offered the door, they took it. With ROTC you can uphold every end of your side of the deal, and the AF can still show you the door in a lean year.

All that to say both paths are very difficult and can lead to lifelong friends and opportunities you'd never have experienced otherwise. There are pros and cons to both. Attitude is key in my opinion, if you have a great one you can thrive anywhere.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

My DD went USAFA, her best friend went AFROTC (she had a Falcon scholarship). I agree there are pros and cons. They actually enjoy comparing their experiences and learning from that as well. For the most part, DD envies the freedom that her friend has and her friend wishes she were more sure that she'll get commissioned. They are both getting top notch educations, but DD's friend isn't sure she'd be able to endure the rigor of the Academy, whereas DD thrives in that environment. To each his/her own.

Honestly, I respect the fact that they both knew themselves well enough to know which route to take. Some don't really know until they try it. That's why USAFA isn't always a fit, and why you get 2 years before you commit.

EDIT: I also should mention that there are AFROTC cadets who go through ESET with the USAFA cadets. DD was in a group with 2 of them & said they were awesome.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I recently read an article about the death of experts. Not that we don't have experts but that everyone thinks he's an expert and the real experts are uncomfortable speaking out.

So I'll just say it... The Air Force Academy is the expert at making Air Force officers. It's better than AFROTC (that doesn't mean it's better than the individual schools).

The Coast Guard Academy is FAR better than Coast Guard ROTC... They don't even compare. CGROTC would be better producing no Coast Guard officers. Boom!

 

[Badge250]

MombaBomba said: ↑
BTW, up until my son started to look into attending the USAFA, I had always thought that academy grads commissioned at a higher level than ROTC.

So, in our present day, we can say that a USAFA graduate and graduate from XYZ University ROTC that commissions, do so at the same level, rank, expectations, pay, etc, etc. But the big advantage is the 100% commissioning rate of USAFA (with that one little detail: IF you get that far and graduate). USAFA: fewer get in but all the graduates commission/ROTC: more get in but not all the graduates commission. Seems to me neither are easy and each path has its unique challenges therefore should be respected equally as a 2nd Lieutenant and judged by their performance from there on out. Please correct any misunderstandings I may have as I am not from a military background.

Seems we are both learning along the way. I am finally starting to get a handle on the abbreviations and acronyms I see here. Though I have to admit, there are posts I still need to read a couple of times in order to understand them. Sometimes my son starts tossing in acronyms and other lingo when he calls, and I must remind him to speak "civilian" with me.

I'm right there with you Momba !

 

[Freda'sMom]

It's unfortunate though, that some dreams may have been cut short due to the power trip of a few young cadre with personal grievances and agendas.

A dirty little secret that happens more often then they want to talk about, and not just at USAFA.

 

[Christcorp]

I still think many of you here put too much emphasis on the cadre, and not enough on the individual trainee. The cadre doesn't know these basic trainees ahead of time. The cadre are also prepared for teaching/instructing basic training. The fact that so few trainees are sent home, shows that there isn't some massive problem going on here.

I just can't for the life of me, understand how some here can accuse some of the cadre of being on a power trip and having personal grievances and agendas, that cut short the dreams of some trainees. And even those who voluntarily leave, meet with Active Duty academy officers. They have the ability to express problems. So, to make such accusations, also means that you are accusing the "Active Duty" officers and NCO's at the academy, of not doing their job. Of not caring. Of simply signing papers for the cadet upper classmen. Basically, you're saying the active duty Captain or Major, work for the 20-21 year old senior cadet. And if the senior cadet says get rid of someone, the Captain or Major jumps.

Sorry, but it simply isn't that way. The cadre/senior cadet obviously is in the position to evaluate a trainee's progression. But if they feel there is a problem with a trainee making it, the active duty staff gets involved. The cadre/senior cadet doesn't decide to send a trainee home.

Have mistakes possibly been made where a trainee was sent home involuntarily? Yes. Have some trainees gotten so discouraged that they quit. Most definitely. An example of that has been shown in this thread. But why must it be that the reason a trainee either quit or was forced to leave, is because some members of the cadre were on a power trip or had personal grievances or a hidden agenda? Why couldn't it also be as simple as; the trainee couldn't handle the training. Either physically or mentally? The cadre and basic training isn't there to coddle the trainees and show them love.

I'd bet a paycheck, that overwhelmingly more often than not, the reason most trainees leave the academy voluntarily, is because either they couldn't handle it, or they realized after being there a little while, that the academy just wasn't for them. You'd be surprised how many kids say they've wanted the academy their WHOLE LIFE, then when they finally get there, realize it is nothing like they imagined. Many of them quit. That's not the academy's fault.

I can also tell you of horror stories of applicants asking me during their interview if there was a way I could make them "Unqualified"? That they didn't really want to go to the academy, but they felt they had to apply because others, (Family), was pushing them in that direction. We've had some get off the bus at basic training and make it clear that they didn't want to be there. The point is.... It's possible that some trainees got kicked out of basic, when they shouldn't have. It's also probable that some trainees up and quit, because they had a cadre member who wasn't the best leader and discouraged them. But it's also "More Likely", that the trainees simply realized that they couldn't deal with the training physically or mentally; and/or that the academy simply wasn't what they though it was going to be. I hear that a lot from those who were in JrROTC, CAP, and Scouts. They don't normally quit, but many thought those programs were going to really prepare them for the academy. They realize soon, how it's not what they expected. On a case by case basis, there are definitely possibilities. Overall, I'll stick with the theory that most trainees who leave either voluntarily or involuntarily, do so because the academy isn't what they thought it would be; and/or because they realize they just can't handle the physical and/or mental training and conditions.

And there is nothing wrong with realizing it's not for you, and moving on. But sometimes, you have to suck it up and press on. I'm positive that not everyone loves their job and their supervisor/manager. But most of us put up with it for the bigger goal down the line. E.g. paycheck, retirement, job security, benefits, etc. Simply saying, that "IF" the reasons you wanted to attend the academy truly exists, and you really want them, then there is no reason in the world that you can't make it through BCT and 4 years at the academy. If you "CHOOSE" not to stay, that is totally up to you. It's not the cadre's fault. The other 95% made it through.

 

[Freda'sMom]

I just can't for the life of me, understand how some here can accuse some of the cadre of being on a power trip and having personal grievances and agendas, that cut short the dreams of some trainees.

Sorry, but it simply isn't that way.

I've spoken personally with cadet and midshipman cadre who have stated quite clearly that they are in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. And they will do everything they can to get someone to quit who they feel doesn't belong.

If you think that doesn't happen then you know a lot less then you claim to know about what goes on there.

 

[MemberLG]

I just can't for the life of me, understand how some here can accuse some of the cadre of being on a power trip and having personal grievances and agendas, that cut short the dreams of some trainees.

Sorry, but it simply isn't that way.

I've spoken personally with cadet and midshipman cadre who have stated quite clearly that they are in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. And they will do everything they can to get someone to quit who they feel doesn't belong.

If you think that doesn't happen then you know a lot less then you claim to know about what goes on there.

I would say those cadet and midhsipman cadre are idiots and misguided. Make me laugh to think that because they have a couple years at the academy that they believe they know enough to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. Reminds of a book about/movie about a secret society in miltiary school. They have a lot less power than they think they have.

So how would a cadre prevent someone to "join" their academy? As far as I know, new cadet training is go or no go based on participation. Anybody heard of failing miltiary grade during cadet basic training getting a cadet separated? The only way I can think of it is "hazing," if so I go back to my comments about them being idiots. I can't say it won't happen, but I think there are enough check and balances where if a cadre goes after a new cadet, he or she will be caught/stopped.

 

[buff81]

I've spoken personally with cadet and midshipman cadre who have stated quite clearly that they are in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. And they will do everything they can to get someone to quit who they feel doesn't belong.

If you think that doesn't happen then you know a lot less then you claim to know about what goes on there.

Well - that's disturbing.
So what you are saying is that the Admissions folks at USAFA and USNA spend months choosing who gets offered appointments and the MOCS spend may hours choosing their slates and the BGOs/ALOs spend many volunteer hours guiding and determining on the ground level the competitive candidates and then the cadre decide who stays and goes by making life miserable for those THEY don't feel belong - in essence thumbing their nose at all the diligent work done by professionals that determined those candidates were worthy of an appointment?
Cadre, then, are the final judge in the admissions process if they truly are 'in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't.'
Wow.

 

[Pima]

I agree with buff81 and Mike.

If that is your opinion, and you can back it up with people that say so, than there is a big problem. The biggest is that the officers that are assigned to these SAs are letting the cadets/mids run the show. You are basically saying that officers are just punching in, and nothing more.

Do I believe there are bullies? Heck Yes! However, I also have faith in the leadership and if they knew there were cadets running roughshod they would tighten the screws on the cadre. They care more about their career than you think. Any scandal could kill their promotion. I doubt that any O3 or O4 up for promotion would risk their career.

 

[Christcorp]

MemberLG is correct. Those cadre you spoke to, must be misguided. And as buff so accurately said, all the work that goes into appointing an individual; by the academy, admissions, MOC, ALO/BGO, etc. doesn't hang on the balance or in the hands of a 20-21 C1C cadet. Sorry, but it's just not like that.

Yes, it's possible that a cadre member could make life miserable for a trainee. But as Buff also accurately pointed out, the individual cadre and trainee are not in a vacuum or bubble. Such a situation would be noticed. By other cadre, other trainees, etc. There's just too much transparency involved.

 

[kinnem]

I just can't for the life of me, understand how some here can accuse some of the cadre of being on a power trip and having personal grievances and agendas, that cut short the dreams of some trainees.Sorry, but it simply isn't that way.

I've spoken personally with cadet and midshipman cadre who have stated quite clearly that they are in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. And they will do everything they can to get someone to quit who they feel doesn't belong.

If you think that doesn't happen then you know a lot less then you claim to know about what goes on there.

Only if the cadet let's them. I think that's part of what CC was referring to.

 

[Christcorp]

I've spoken personally with cadet and midshipman cadre who have stated quite clearly that they are in a position to decide who gets to join their academy and who doesn't. And they will do everything they can to get someone to quit who they feel doesn't belong.

If you think that doesn't happen then you know a lot less then you claim to know about what goes on there.

And if you think the vast majority of those who QUIT, do so because of inappropriate training by cadres, and NOT because they realize that it's just not for them, or that they can't handle it, then maybe you don't know much about academy basic training either.