Yet Another Midshipman “Ask Me Anything” Thread

I think it will be interesting to see how things learned through this whole process since March, will be applied going forward. Speaking to plebe summer specifically, will USNA go back to the old model? Or adopt some of what they are/will do this year? Having the 'rug ripped out from under your feet' exposes a lot of opportunities to grow/change for the better. Even when one critiques and looks back on a process, it's hard to really identify things that need change. This whole time since March, where USNA has basically had to rebuild 'what works', has given them opportunities that simply could not be accounted for in any other way than having to deal with them. Same as with any business/unit/family. I think it will be interesting to see what things are implemented as a direct result of all of this.

Then '23 will be able to say THEY had the LAST REAL PLEBE SUMMER!
 
justdoit19 said:
I think it will be interesting to see how things learned through this whole process since March, will be applied going forward. Speaking to plebe summer specifically, will USNA go back to the old model? Or adopt some of what they are/will do this year? Having the 'rug ripped out from under your feet' exposes a lot of opportunities to grow/change for the better. Even when one critiques and looks back on a process, it's hard to really identify things that need change. This whole time since March, where USNA has basically had to rebuild 'what works', has given them opportunities that simply could not be accounted for in any other way than having to deal with them. Same as with any business/unit/family. I think it will be interesting to see what things are implemented as a direct result of all of this.

Then '23 will be able to say THEY had the LAST REAL PLEBE SUMMER!
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With all the turmoil they have faced, it is clear the class of 2023 has had the hardest plebe year on record!
 
Interesting perspective Kierkegaard ... I had lunch with the Brigade a couple years ago, and it was very obvious that things have changed - a lot. ! While I agree that yelling, screaming, PTing and (borderline) hazing, are unnecessary, I don't agree that the expecting Plebes to memorize rates, due chow calls, etc. is a bad thing .. Sure, much of the stuff is meaningless babble, but the pressure of having to be ready to recite all this information, under pressure was really an essential part of the plebe program, and important to developing the ability to act and think under stress, as well develop the time management /prioritzation skills that are so necessary in the fleet. In addition, there are numerous real world reasons for learning to memorize and act on information immediately under pressure -- NATOPS bold Emergency Procedures being one. While change is often necessary, the old way has been proven time and time again -- VADM Stockdale credits the pressures of Plebe year for his survival during Plebe year.
 
A1Janitor said:
With all the turmoil they have faced, it is clear the class of 2023 has had the hardest plebe year on record!
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I'm not so sure about that. We got through most of the training, but still missed out on roughly a third of plebe year. I think our easy plebe year will follow us for a while. We find some comfort in knowing we're the highest paid class of MIDN on record.
 
Skipper07 said:
I'm not so sure about that. We got through most of the training, but still missed out on roughly a third of plebe year. I think our easy plebe year will follow us for a while. We find some comfort in knowing we're the highest paid class of MIDN on record.
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LOL I was joking.

But the truth is my son wanted to be be there with his classmates and not home.
 
My DS is in daily communication with some of his plebe company mates and a very few out of company plebes. And he was able to do E-trials with five other plebes (two of whom were in his company). But there is a real loss of continuity. The inability to interact with upperclassmen and to be around officers and SELs is telling. I suspect that with the nearly complete loss of summer training many feel less apart of the Navy than previous classes. My son is itching to get back but at the same time, there is an inevitable disconnect. I’m pretty sure that the USNA powers that be understand this. I think the 1/C and 2/C are less prone to this, having had summer training and more years under their belt. It will be interesting to observe(from afar) how this fall goes. Will they be able to go to the Notre Dame game? What about Army-Navy? Will anyone get off-Yard liberty? If not, will there be something to do for on-Yard liberty? Will there be any accommodations for additional training or more Fleet/Corps interaction during AC year? Will newly minted Youngsters be regarded as “not quite fully formed” by 2 and 1/C’s (and by plebes)? Will MacD weight room access be limited (my DS is concerned about this)? I am confident this will work out but there will be a period of adjustment on both sides as COVID has ripped a gaping hole in the space-time continuum.
 
I agree with OldNavyBGOs on the value of chow calls. It was one of the experiences that made ZERO sense in the moment but, looking back, was one of the best things we were forced to do. You have to memorize a bunch of stuff, get it out quickly and accurately while several people are screaming in your face, and then forget all you learned and learned something entirely new the next day.

That experience helped me immeasurably when I was an Intel Briefer during the first PG war. Of course, I wasn't being yelled at, but I did have a short time to memorize a lot of stuff and had to get it out in a room full of Admirals (lot of pressure) I also learned from chow calls to ignore screaming and nastiness. I've had colleagues and clients try it -- I tune them out until they stop because there is no way they can be louder or nastier than 5 people screaming in your face.

The one thing that was bad about chow calls is that they gave the worst of the upperclass an excuse to go after people they didn't like just b/c they didn't like them.

The one thing that rarely happened in our day was "punishment PT." Maybe my memory fails me, but I don't recall us being told with any frequency to do pushups or similar. We had to "brace up," but I believe that practice has been DQ'ed. It was permitted at the time on the theory that it helped improve our posture.:rolleyes:

I will say in retrospect that almost everything we were asked/required to do as plebes that seemed stupid at the time, I now realize had value. The one exception was squaring corners and shouting "Go Navy" every time. Other than making a lot of noise, not sure the value of that.:)
 
I have heard so many very convincing personal anecdotes about the value of rates, chow calls and come-arounds (do they still do those?) both in the Fleet and IRL. I even have my own anecdotes. I have two sincere questions. First, has anyone ever studied this systematically? Is there published research investigating whether there is an actual link between "being a USNA plebe" and performance under pressure? It's an area completely unfamiliar to me. Second: about half, give or take, of newly commissioned USN ensigns and Marine Corps 2LTs come from ROTC, and very few of those programs have chow calls or other regular opportunities for MIDN to practice memorizing and repeating accurately. Yet they seem to do just fine in the Fleet. Do they, actually, "do fine" or are there any detectable differences between commissioning sources and performance under pressure?
 
Kierkegaard said:
After all, a quarter or so of Plebes don’t even end up participating in Plebe training because being on a varsity sports team grants excusals from everything except the basic stuff like chopping, and they still go on to become great officers, which leads me to question just how useful some of the things we make Plebes do actually are.
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I had two varsity seasons as a plebe and about the only things that I missed out on were parades, intramurals and some evening come-arounds alsthnough I did do intramurals during the winter season. I still had come-arounds in the morning before quarters and then noon-meal every single day. I still did all chowcalls that my peers did and when I missed because of practice, I had to switch off with a classmate and to their calls later. T-Tables were pretty scarce outside of Football and basketball and I spent almost the entire year on company tables. My upperclassmen made sure that anything that I "missed" at evening come-around was more than made up, mostly at morning come-around.
 
usna1985 said:
I agree with OldNavyBGOs on the value of chow calls. It was one of the experiences that made ZERO sense in the moment but, looking back, was one of the best things we were forced to do. You have to memorize a bunch of stuff, get it out quickly and accurately while several people are screaming in your face, and then forget all you learned and learned something entirely new the next day.

That experience helped me immeasurably when I was an Intel Briefer during the first PG war. Of course, I wasn't being yelled at, but I did have a short time to memorize a lot of stuff and had to get it out in a room full of Admirals (lot of pressure) I also learned from chow calls to ignore screaming and nastiness. I've had colleagues and clients try it -- I tune them out until they stop because there is no way they can be louder or nastier than 5 people screaming in your face.
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When taking over the deck on a Navy ship, you spend 10-15 minutes (or more) getting briefed on the status of a myriad of on and off-ship "stuff" as well as planned future operations, etc. It can literally almost be a 15 minute chowcall of information and once done, you take the deck and you are responsible for knowing it all and acting appropriately in emergencies or otherwise. Being able to take in the information, UNDERSTAND it and be ready to use it as situations change is key to the lives and even survival of many. Thankfully, no upperclass to berate me as I worked with it, just my own conscience.

Then, years later, I was assigned to an operational fleet staff and stood many watches in the command center. Here the pre-watch turnover took over half an hour (intel briefs are not short) but then you relieved and had responsibility for a warfare area and dozens (or more) units or eventually, the whole fleet as Battlewatch Captain. Here, the three stars I served were generally not too difficult but their immediate subordinates (N2, N3, etc) were every bit as "testing" as any upperclass I ever came around to.

Plebe Year Chowcalls and Rates were really good prep for this stuff.
 
I don't know if anyone has studied the value of chow calls, etc. The fact they were valuable to me (and others) in the military and life is not to say they are necessary or that they make you more successful than those who didn't go through them. I'm sure there are evolutions today that we didn't experience that current mids will look back on as very relevant. There are also other ways to learn to handle stress.

As noted, chow calls weren't 100% a good thing. Having several upperclass yelling at you for 10 minutes straight for reasons unrelated to your performance made us tougher but, in retrospect, wasn't the best way to show leadership.

Come arounds (3x/day for us) were probably better but their value did depend on your upperclass. Some made a real effort to help plebes learn and develop and others were either lazy or jerks. There was no abuse that I ever saw (that you may read about in books from the 60s). Most of us remember our plebe year 3/C, 2/C and squad leaders either b/c of what they taught us and the examples they set every single day when we stood in front of them. Or we remember them as sorry excuses for human beings, let alone leaders.

I remember fondly my 3/C. VERY smart guy who demanded the best from me every single morning at come around. He was always prepared and always professional. He made me focus on attention to detail and, when I was lacking, helped me improve rather than berate me. Sadly, he was killed not long after graduation while piloting a private plane. I was thinking about him the other night (38 years later) and thinking his death was a loss to the submarine community, the USN and society. Robert Oakenell RIP.
 
usna1985 said:
Having several upperclass yelling at you for 10 minutes straight for reasons unrelated to your performance made us tougher but, in retrospect, wasn't the best way to show leadership.
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I often describe USNA as a Leadership laboratory -- you will see the good, the bad, and the ugly , both at the Officer and the Midshipman level, and will have the opportunity to develop your own style based upon those observations.

For every example of bad leadership --i.e. 2/c standing in the Plebes face yelling or Company Officers recognized as power hungry tyrants at Main Office watch inspection (when my Class talks about Cub Scout, it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts:rolleyes:) who use fear and intimidation to drive performance, there were others that you learned your rate and were squared away because they were squared away and you wanted to emulate and impress them.
 
It's the old Athens or Sparta debate. USNA has been drifting further towards the Athens side, trying to prove that they're really just an elite university with a touch of military, at the expense of the Spartan, or warrior, side of the equation. I think that misses what should be the end goal of USNA - to produce warrior leaders who also happen to be well educated, instead of trying to do things the other way around.
 
pilot2b said:
It's the old Athens or Sparta debate. USNA has been drifting further towards the Athens side, trying to prove that they're really just an elite university with a touch of military, at the expense of the Spartan, or warrior, side of the equation. I think that misses what should be the end goal of USNA - to produce warrior leaders who also happen to be well educated, instead of trying to do things the other way around.
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You'd be surprised- it was Athens that defeated the Persians
 
^ and Athens had, appropriately, a navy as its dominant mitary force.
 
I
OldRetSWO said:
I had two varsity seasons as a plebe and about the only things that I missed out on were parades, intramurals and some evening come-arounds alsthnough I did do intramurals during the winter season. I still had come-arounds in the morning before quarters and then noon-meal every single day. I still did all chowcalls that my peers did and when I missed because of practice, I had to switch off with a classmate and to their calls later. T-Tables were pretty scarce outside of Football and basketball and I spent almost the entire year on company tables. My upperclassmen made sure that anything that I "missed" at evening come-around was more than made up, mostly at morning come-around.
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I suppose that’s yet another thing that’s changed then, as now most athletes don’t do chow calls since they have morning and noon workout and don’t attend formations. And just about every team has team tables now, often year-round. It does seem to create a disconnect between Varsity athletes and everyone else, which I don’t hold against them because they don’t make the rules, but it seems like the Academy’s urge to have top-level teams in every NCAA sport has become more of a priority, possibly to the detriment of a consistent training program, such a lot of Plebes not doing chow calls.

I can definitely see the value in practicing quickly memorizing things and reciting them while under heavy stress. The rates during Plebe Summer are all about that. The detailers and even our company officers and the Commandant would tell us how important it was to precisely recall information under severe stress. As far as chow calls and come-arounds go, it seems these have changed a lot more than Plebe Summer rates have. Come-arounds now are moreso intended to be mini informal counseling sessions on the Plebe’s general performance for the week along with a review of that week’s Pro Know chapter. It really depends on the upperclass though, as some just want to breeze through it and get on with their day which really defeats the purpose. And then there’s a lot of variation with chowcalls: In some companies the plebes have the script typed in a group chat on their phone and practice it on the deck plate with no upperclass in sight, while others are expected to have it perfectly memorized while getting grilled on “the days”. It really is a leadership laboratory with a bunch of different experiments cooking in each company, and perhaps that’s not a bad thing, as the mids witness all different styles of leadership can and choose which ones to be most influenced by. I’m sure perspectives on many things from the Academy change over time especially with fleet experience so I’ll have to remember to revisit this topic in a decade or two.
 
OldRetSWO said:
My upperclassmen made sure that anything that I "missed" at evening come-around was more than made up, mostly at morning come-around.
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I concur with Kierkergaard above. I am an athlete and certainly felt some of the disconnect. I missed chow calls, MQF, NMF, squad tables, and NMT almost everyday while in season. I made an effort to still be active in company and show up whenever I could; some of my teammates did not. I think that the ease in which some plebes can shirk responsibility and training is a failure by their upperclass.
 
Unless they are on watch.
On weekends with a Monday holiday, it’s usually town liberty on S-S, with yard liberty on Monday. Good weekends for parents to visit.

“Overnights” (overnight town liberty off-Yard) and “weekends” are doled out by class and can also be earned.
 
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