Best way to get into USAFA

[Packer]

People really get worked up about this and take it personally. The ones responding here and taking it personally are likely not a part of the problem/perception. A relative few give the stereotype the oxygen it needs to survive and thrive. I believe that most of the athletes are deserving to be there. Some, perhaps not. Do the IC athletes have it easier? Some do.

Here is a quote out of the Gazette from a few years back:

Rep. George Nethercutt, R-Wash., requested the GAO investigation after a Gazette report in 2002 showed the Air Force Academy had admitted a record number of cadets below its academic minimums, most of them recruited athletes. Such cadets don't do as well at the academy or afterward, an Air Force report said.

There are a lot of athletes that have the whole package. They are the ones that the AF wants and needs.

 

[Pima]

JMPO, I think that because this yr the AFA has announced the lower number of apptmts, you are seeing this issue come to the fore front.

Don't get me wrong, the argument has always existed, but now it is at a fervor. Candidates/parents of non-recruited, yet on an athletic team will find issue that they are taking up an appointment because they were given a pass since they can catch a ball better via AFA's athletic pov.

Bobbigboy don't take this wrong...but your DD is recruited because she is the shining star on her team, yet she is a member of a team and without those team mates that weren't recruited, you can't say she would be recruited. If her teammates were sub-par and she was out the door, due to their inabilities the team would lose. Would she be recruited if they were 8 and 8,? Theoretically, it was a team effort. Not trying to pick on her, just trying to illustrate how athletes who support her ability to shine were not offered the same chance. No judgement either way, just saying look at the kid/candidate on the Varsity team that wasn't recruited may view it.

Recruited will state that due to the hours required and their athletic ability they prove that they are an asset since they can compete on a state/national level and their grades may have been dinged, but they were dinged due to the fact of their athletic ability at such a high level.

If people thought last yr was a blood bath, just wait, because according to Flieger 2016 will have a smaller class size than 2015.

People have already stated that the AFA is smart enough to understand even for recruiting, the numbers will be reduced.

Realistically, recruited athletes are LOA, and although they need a nom, they do not necessarily get charged to the MOC.

You can get on the rooftop and scream foul or you can accept that this is the way, and make sure you win your MOC via the WCS.

Come next September you will be cheering on that recruited cadet.

My only issue that I would ever have with a recruited athlete, is if they ask to be released early to join the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. and not pay back their commitment like the traditional cadet.

Before you flame me, I take a different approach than most of you. I am with Packer and Mike...they still need to maintain a gpa. If the recruited athlete can maintain the gpa, they deserve to be there. Two of Bullet's and my friends were recruited athletes (FB and gymnastics), in our personal opinion they were the best of the best officers.

I get both sides.

 

[Jarhead]

Well, I just found out about another story of a recruited athlete that already got his LOA..what is it 1st week September already. Kid's never mentioned AFA until this summer...doesn't have the grades for sure. Was recruited strictly for his athletic talent. Seeing that the Prep school is loaded up, too, I think a lot of academy admissions is not any more "rigorous" than any other school for the athletes. The regular admissions...yes, they have to spend years getting ready for the opportunity but someone who can play with a piece of leather is more valuable to the school than someone who can pass Calculus.
Amazing...pathetic... but amazing...

How have any LOA's gone out and the admissions board has not meet.

 

[raimius]

There are always a few that ruin things for the many.

There are a few ways that ICs perpetuate the "Terrazzo Gap." A couple teams pretty much reject trying to look good in uniform. When one 4 dig I knew was confronted about his blues looking terrible, he explained that his team did not accept wearing certain optional items that kept the uniform looking good. I heard more than one story about this. Others appear to try to get exempted from any military activity possible. Some of the coaches support this. One e-mail that circulated pretty widely, had a coach calling some cadets "authoritarian despots acting under the guise of leadership" or something very close to that (I don't have the email anymore).
Do ICs rightly deserve to have scheduling exceptions? Of course they do. Their schedules are busier than most non-ICs. The issue becomes when is an exception reasonable and when are people creating scheduling conflicts to avoid things they would rather not do? I've seen plenty of both.

That said, there are MANY ICs who work their butts off to succeed at USAFA. I've seen ICs get back from practice and jump into squadron activities and leadership for hours every day, and still excel in academics. Those are probably some of the cadets with the highest potential--they display amazing skills in leadership, athletics, and academics. Yes, they literally fit 26+ hours of activities into their daily schedule, and do it all well. If you could hand pick people to get the mission done, those are the type to look for.

 

[Pima]

One e-mail that circulated pretty widely, had a coach calling some cadets "authoritarian despots acting under the guise of leadership" or something very close to that (I don't have the email anymore).

Shame on the AFA administration for allowing that coach to stay in their position, because IMPO, they sold out the AFA.

 

[BobBigBoy]

USAFA Falcon '15...thanks for your "real" assessment of the situation for an athlete.

Ironically, your schedule seems to mirror my DD's schedule for the last six years. Youth sports today are a specialty coached by full time employees of clubs that are professionally managed. Their tenure is based on results so practices are three times weekly with games or scrimmages on the weekends that go year around. Unfortunately, this leaves no time for a second sport or little else. My DD is usually up until at least midnight finishing homework after a practice from 5:30 to 7:30. Factor in zero period leadership that starts at 7:30 and you can imagine her workload. Great time management skills have been learned with little prompting from me or her mother. The amazing thing is the vast majority of her team are 3.8 to 4.0 students who know how to get it done. I hope this learned skill will help her overcome any shortfalls she may face in the classroom at the USAFA,

P.S. Pima...I agree with your post!

 

[aglages]

Is this the current AFA QB?

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/afte...quarterback-tim-jefferson-i-wan-to-fly-c-17s/
How did the recruiting process go to bring you to the Academy? Did you have your eyes set here?
Actually, I knew about the academy, but I didn’t give any thought to going here. I always wanted to be a pilot since I was four or five years old. Actually, the recruiting coach, he found me at my school and he offered me a scholarship right on the spot and I figured that is a perfect opportunity. It gives me a chance to play football and become a pilot in the future.


He probably had a 4.0 GPA so the "recruiting coach" felt comfortable offering him a scholarship right on the spot.

 

[hornetguy]

Tim is a nice guy. Met him a few times as one of my good friends is a mutual friend. So occasionally when we'd take a break from the lab for some coffee at the cafe he would be there with a bud and we'd all sit down together for a few min. Article does not lie, he is not very boisterous and you'd never think he was a football player, much less QB, from sitting with him.

 

[Sheepdog]

Wow, just got done reading this very lengthy thread. Good stuff! Sorry about beating this dead horse, but I feel compelled to put in my two cents...

It seems to me the purpose of the SA's is to provide the military with the absolute best officers they can produce, not create the best football, basketball, or soccer players. I'll use this hypothetical example: Two young men were both starters on the same football team, one was a D1 quality lineman, and the other a good receiver (not D1 quality). The lineman had a 3.0 GPA and a 1600 SAT. The receiver a 4.3 GPA and a 2000 SAT. Based on what I have gleaned from this thread, everything else being equal, the lineman would have the better shot at an appointment if he were recruited. They are both athletes, both team leaders, etc, etc, etc, but the receiver did not get an appointment because he had to compete against all of the non-IC's for the remaining spots. Does that make the lineman a better officer candidate than the receiver?

Yes, the SA's need athletes, but they need and should demand the best officers first, and worry about competing in D1 sports second. If the SA's were in D2 or D3, would this not solve some of the issues regarding the arguments for and against recruited athletes in this thread? I enjoyed reading most of the posts here, as there are pros and cons to both sides. I'm not inferring the recruited athletes don't become very good officers, but are they the BEST the SA's can produce? Seems to me trying to compete in D1 sports has taken away from what the real purpose is of the SA's.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Two service academies are DIII, and yes, it does help.

 

[Christcorp]

Sheepdog; 2 things you should realize.

1. Out of the 50+ recruited football players, only a couple received appointments via any "special" nominations or slots. The overwhelming majority, even though they were recruited, still had to get their own representative, senator, presidential, rotc, etc... nomination and get an appointment. Same with all the other sports. Very few receive an appointment via any "internal" slots.

2. Sports is one of the best tools for developing leadership. That's why the academy basically makes it mandatory that applicants for the most part must have had high school sports on their resume. And why for the majority who do not play an IC sport at the academy, they will do intramural sports.

And like it or not, D1 IC athletics; especially football and basketball; bring in a lot of money. Most of the athletics is self supporting. And the amount of IC athletes is small compared to the rest of the cadet wing. So yes, they probably ARE the best leaders that the academies can produce. Now there will be those that think grades are everything. They will disagree with me. That's fine. But grades aren't everything. Just like the academy wanted the best "Well rounded" applicant to get a commission, that's how they want their cadets.

The problem is; people disagree with ANY type of diversity, unless they happen to benefit from that diversity. And believe it or not, being an "Above average - D1 athlete" is just as much diversity as being poor, black, female, single parent, musician, gay, straight, catholic, mormon, atheist, etc... My son was a recruited athlete. Fortunately for him, he received his appointment in October, prior to being blue-chipped. In other words, he got an appointment on his own. And that's how the overwhelming majority of IC athletes got into the academy. On their own. They may have been recruited, but very, very, few don't get in 100% on their own application without sports being involved.

Yea, you brought up a dead horse, but that's ok. It will be brought up again, and again, and again, forever. Just like other forms of diversity, athletes at the academy get a bad wrap. They are assumed for the most part to be dumb jocks. Just like any form of diversity, people assume the "OLD" forms of "Affirmative Action" and that people are given appointments strictly because of their race, gender, color, etc... These are such a very small number, that they aren't worth discussing. Unfortunately, there are those that will find that one or two diverse students; whether it's athletes, race, color, etc... that for whatever reason probably wasn't the "BEST" possible applicant. And these people will make a stereotypical opinion that ALL individuals in that diverse group is also not the best qualified. Unfortunately, that's something that you have to get over. It's not the academy's problem. It's not my problem. It's not most of the cadet wing's problem. We all know the facts.

 

[aglages]

1. Out of the 50+ recruited football players, only a couple received appointments via any "special" nominations or slots. The overwhelming majority, even though they were recruited, still had to get their own representative, senator, presidential, rotc, etc... nomination and get an appointment.

..that's how the overwhelming majority of IC athletes got into the academy. On their own. They may have been recruited, but very, very, few don't get in 100% on their own application without sports being involved..

CC: Where are the stats for the nomination sources and HS academic standings for IC athletes published? Perhaps a link to those "numbers" would help assure the doubters that IC athletes are held to the same standards (or at least close) as other applicants.

 

[Christcorp]

That would be asking to see individual applicant's scores. You're not going to get that information. But I can assure you, because not only was my son a recruited athlete, but I got to know the majority of the football player in the class of 2012; two things:

1. The entire athletic department only has a very few "Slots" that they can make available for a "Star" athlete. The majority of the "Recruited" athletes had to get into the academy on their own merits. They had to get the nominations and get appointed just like everyone else.

2. Even those few who were able to receive an appointment through the athletic department slots or superintendent, had to meet the "Minimum Requirements". If not, this would be totally counter productive. It does no one any good at the academy if an individual can't maintain the minimum NCAA or academy's minimum GPA. Especially when the academy doesn't have any "BIRD" classes/degrees. They all have to take the same engineering, science, math, etc... classes that ALL students must take.

The problem I see is with perception. Most everyone agrees that a 3.85 gpa student should receive more points on the application than a 3.70 applicant. A person taking 5 AP classes should receive more points than a person who took no AP classes. A person who did the 4 year IB (International Baccalaureate) program should receive more points on the application than the person who only took 5 AP classes. The person who was class president, boy's state, eagle scout, etc... should receive more points in the leadership section of the application than the person who was simply a "Member" of a club, team, organization, etc... Unfortunately, many don't believe that the star athlete who was "All State", nationally ranked, Star Quarterback/kicker/receiver, etc... who was also the "Team Captain" etc... shouldn't receive more points on the application than the individual who simply participate and lettered in a varsity sports and had regular leadership experience. But the truth is, they SHOULD receive more points. The "Excelled" beyond the normal applicant in the areas of leadership, physical fitness, teamwork, etc... compared to the average applicant.

The rebuttal to my argument is that the academy puts "More Weight" on the star athlete's accomplishment than the average applicant who also had experience in sports, leadership, etc... Well, athletics is part of the "Well Rounded" applicant and also part of diversity. Just like they see the "Eagle Scout" higher than a person who was simply a Boy Scout. Or a "Mitchell Award" holder higher than a person simply in CAP. And yes, there are a few; Very Few; athletes that may have been given extra consideration because they were the top 1% of all recruited athletes. But again, this is a very small amount. The majority of "Recruited Athletes" still had to receive an appointment on their own, 100%, just like everyone else. The only difference is that they don't have to "Try Out" for the team. They are on the team. And then, that's only guaranteed for a short period of time. Many of these athletes are cut from the team in the first season, second season, and even third season. Walk-ons on the other hand, who weren't recruited, have to "Try Out" for the team. And there's even less of those that are accepted.

Bottom line is: All of these athletes, even the "Special Ones", meet the minimum standards. Unfortunately, the minimum standards for the academy aren't really that hard to achieve. You only need a 24 English and 25 Math ACT for the "Minimum". 580 Verbal and 560 Math in the SAT. GPA is subjective depending on whether it's High School or College; School profile and whether you are taking regular classes or AP/IB classes; etc... But again, if the individual is not capable of passing the academy's curriculum, then it's totally counter productive if they are a great athlete or not.

Anyway; I'm sure that this didn't satisfy some people's concerns. There are going to be those who think that if even 1 athlete got in with academic scores lower than a non-selectee/non-IC Athlete, that that is wrong. Well, the same can be said for ANY diversity group. The individual who was given preference because they came from the inner city poverty, single parent, worked 2 jobs to help his mom financially, raised his baby brother and sister, and their mother is an immigrant who doesn't speak english, etc.... over the individual who had higher scores. That's the thing about diversity. It's subjective. It's purpose is to bring in cadets and future leaders who they themselves are diverse, or they will be exposed to diverse fellow cadets; so as to familiarize them with the "REAL MILITARY" which is made up of this "Diverse Population". Anyway; sorry for being long winded. Mike....

 

[aglages]

That would be asking to see individual applicant's scores. You're not going to get that information. But I can assure you, because not only was my son a recruited athlete, but I got to know the majority of the football player in the class of 2012;

Just to seperae fact from opinion...when you responded to Sheepdog s/he needed to realize that:

1. Out of the 50+ recruited football players, only a couple received appointments via any "special" nominations or slots. The overwhelming majority, even though they were recruited, still had to get their own representative, senator, presidential, rotc, etc... nomination and get an appointment. Same with all the other sports. Very few receive an appointment via any "internal" slots.

This was an opinion and not one supported by any facts or figures that you have seen.

1. The entire athletic department only has a very few "Slots" that they can make available for a "Star" athlete. The majority of the "Recruited" athletes had to get into the academy on their own merits. They had to get the nominations and get appointed just like everyone else.

How many slots?

2. Even those few who were able to receive an appointment through the athletic department slots or superintendent, had to meet the "Minimum Requirements". If not, this would be totally counter productive. It does no one any good at the academy if an individual can't maintain the minimum NCAA or academy's minimum GPA.

I don't think the NCAA minimums and the USAFA minimum GPA are same. Which standard do the the IC athletes need to meet? Do IC athletes meet the exact same GPA standards as the non-athletes?

I seem to recall the subject of diversity recruiting and IC athlete recruiting being discussed quite thoroughly on a different thread earlier in the year. Also information that "you're not going to get". In that case it was concerning the USNA and an article that published some interesting diversity statistics in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from a newspaper.
http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=17142&highlight=diversity

Do you think there is a substantial difference in diversity/IC recruiting between the various SAs?

 

[Sheepdog]

Anyway; I'm sure that this didn't satisfy some people's concerns. There are going to be those who think that if even 1 athlete got in with academic scores lower than a non-selectee/non-IC Athlete, that that is wrong. Well, the same can be said for ANY diversity group. The individual who was given preference because they came from the inner city poverty, single parent, worked 2 jobs to help his mom financially, raised his baby brother and sister, and their mother is an immigrant who doesn't speak english, etc.... over the individual who had higher scores. That's the thing about diversity. It's subjective. It's purpose is to bring in cadets and future leaders who they themselves are diverse, or they will be exposed to diverse fellow cadets; so as to familiarize them with the "REAL MILITARY" which is made up of this "Diverse Population". Anyway; sorry for being long winded. Mike....[/QUOTE]

CC, I appreciate your opinion and your posts, as I look forward to the information you provide for all of us posters. I am not in the loop because I do not have a child at the AFA, but only know of the experiences I hear from friends whose kids are or have been in one of the SA's. I too am the "victim" of diversity in my line of work. I fully understand it, and l live with it, but I don't have to agree with it.

I think one question I am looking to be answered is why do the SA's even have D1 programs? I would say two reasons, D1 athletics have been deeply rooted in the SA's for years, and the biggest reason,......they generate $MONEY$. Is this method creating good officers? Of course it is. Is it creating the absolute best? No. It would be very interesting to see how many of the IC's would get in on their own, or even more so, would even apply if there were no D1 sports and only D2/3 or intramural sports. I fully agree there are those who would still get in, but not having that "diversity" of being a D1 athlete would get many of them passed up. We agree to disagree on whether a D1 athlete vs. a very good high school athlete is considered a diversity. Being a better athlete does not necessarily make you a better leader. Ok, enough on that.

Do you have a rough idea of how many members of the 2015 class were recruited in all sports? That would give us a better idea as to how many non-IC spots were available to applicants. I do realize there are many top schools who also recruit and play D1 sports, but many of them are not as limited to the number of freshmen they can take in.

Again, I appreciate the input, and you are correct, you can't please everyone all the time.

 

[Christcorp]

I can tell you that the IC athletes at the air force academy must maintain the same minimum GPA standards that ALL other cadets must achieve. And that is higher than the NCAA requirements.

And yes, I believe that all the academies have basically the same policies on recruiting athletes and all other diversity students. But no, I don't have any actual data or stats. Only based off of what I learn in briefings and such with admissions and LOD's.

Also; realize that ALL appointments MUST be accompanied by a NOMINATION. I don't care if you're the #1 Running back in the country; if you don't have a NOMINATION, you CAN'T get an appointment. Having said that; the academy superintendent has a MAXIMUM of 50 "At Large" nominations. These nominations can be used for anyone the Superintendent believes is worthy. And this is generally going to be the "Pool" of nominations that the "Super-star" athlete that a coach really, really, really, wants to recruit, but couldn't get a nomination from another source comes from. But again; they have to meet the minimum requirements for an appointment. And no, it's not only coaches going after these slots. It's also admissions going for an individual they gave an LOA to in October, but they weren't able to receive a nomination. Or the application that came in around January/February at the end of the cycle, but their reps/senators already gave out all their nominations and this person's application walks on water.

If a person wants to start reading the actual law pertaining to nominations and appointments, you can check out title 10. Here's a quick section:
10 U.S.C. 9342, USAFA; 10 U.S.C. 6954, USNA; and 10 U.S.C. 4342, USMA.

 

[Christcorp]

Sheepdog: i can't give you an exact number, but I can tell you that from 1st hand experience, I can tell you that the majority of the 50+ football players that "WERE RECRUITED", had to get into the academy totally on their own. We're they recruited? Yes. Would they have probably not looked into the academy had they not been recruited? Probably. But that's the same with any diversity group. The academy actively recruits cadets. Athletes and non-athletes. But again; even though they were "Recruited", the majority of the athlete/applicant still got in on their own. But that's why 50+ are being recruited for football. To ensure than 15-20 will actually be athletes come their senior year.

So I'm still not sure what you're asking. You keep implying that basically ALL 50 of these recruited football players, (Or whatever athlete), got in with special treatment and/or below standards. I'm telling you as the parent of a cadet who was recruited, someone who knows a lot of the recruited athletes, and as an ALO, that the majority of "Recruited Athletes" had to get appointed on their own merits. That they had to compete for a nomination just like everyone else. Are there some that are "Super-star Recruits" who may have had help getting a nomination? Yes; but they are very few, and they still had to meet the minimum requirements to attend the academy.

 

[Luigi59]

But again; they have to meet the minimum requirements for an appointment.

Well, there are "minimums" and there are "minimums." And whatever "minimums" exist, they are set by who? Yep, the Academy itself. Who can disregard them whenever they wish.

At USNA, they even admit that there is "no "standard cut-off" or minimum SAT for anyone." (CDR Joe Carpenter)

As shown in the FOIA data from the USNA, D1 athletes (football) were admitted with math SAT scores as low as 410 and verbal scores as low as 370.

I'm sure the USAFA has similar statistics.

 

[aglages]

Do you have a rough idea of how many members of the 2015 class were recruited in all sports?

Sheepdog: I think it is important to understand that none of the SAs are interested in releasing the information you are requesting or statistics on diversity recruiting (other than what percentage of the class are URMs). We can speculate on why they choose not to release that information, but the bottom line is that unless forced to (FOIA) they will not. Should that make us suspicious of what those statistics might reveal/indicate? I suppose each of us has to answer that question for themselves. My point in posting on this thread at all is to make it clear to you that what you are receiving are opinions not facts.

 

[JMC0759]

Sheepdog - not all the academies have D1 sports. USMMA and USCGA don't fall into that category and they have no problems filling up a class.

And, whether you are recruited or not you will be involved in team play, physical fitness or intramurals every day at the USAFA.