Russia/Ukraine

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I must say that it's the first time I have heard of a COUNTRY doing a re-branding campaign.
 
The basic answer is that Russia doesnt like that Eastern European nations like Poland and Ukraine are part of Nato or US influence. Also just as important, although Putin knows he cant rebuild the Soviet Union in terms of land size, he still wants these countries to be under the influence of Russia. He doesn't have to run the countries which is more of a headache than it's worth, but he wants them to be part of the Russian alliance as its border against Nato. Honestly, i don't understand why he would ever fear Nato. Nato was basically created to defend against the Soviet Union. I can't honestly believe he thinks that all of the members of Nato would one-day vote to invade Russia.

In any case, there is zero percent chance that the US or Nato would defend Ukraine against the Russians. At best, there would be economical penalties and i am not even sure that would even amount to much as countries like Germany buy a lot of energy from Russia. The world allowed Russia to take Crimea without much of a penalty, so why should Putin worry about Ukraine. He will probably take out the leadership, put in his own people and Ukraine would be once again an independent nation with a leader who supports Russia
 
Interesting thread -- don't really have time to fully digest, but brings me back to my MIDN days --studying PoliSci with emphasis on Soviet Union. (I bought full into the theory that you needed to know and understand the enemy). GWU has some good insight, and generally consistent with the Cold War thinking on both sides of the Wall.

Interesting comments about US security -- yes, US border security is weak, but we have been fortunate over the years that we don't face a significant military threat. (Yes, we face other threats, drugs, illegal aliens). Frankly, I wouldn't be overly concerned with Mexico or Canada cozying up to China, until they put a large number of troops in country.

Finally, the big issue at stake here is US credibility and commitment to common defense. If we will accept a minor incursion (um, what is minor?), will we accept a minor incursion somewhere else ? If you draw a line in the sand, you can expect the opposition will come up to that line.
 
Small Team Bacsi said:
www.cnn.com

Trump gears up for possible Putin meeting as Ukraine tensions rise | CNN Politics

President Donald Trump once mocked his predecessor as he confronted Russia's 2014 aggression in Ukraine, saying Russian President Vladimir Putin was "having a great time toying with the President."
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

IMO the chances are absolutely 0 that the Ukraine was not discussed in that secret meeting.

Regional issues being one of only 2-3 things on the announced agenda.
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What kind of message do you guess was conveyed to Russia regarding Ukraine by the US during those meetings?
 
If you haven't had the chance, this book is a great study about why these conflicts take place.

Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Explain Everything About the World (Politics of Place)​


Amazon.com: Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Explain Everything About the World (Politics of Place): 9781501121470: Marshall, Tim: Books

Buy Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Explain Everything About the World (Politics of Place) on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders
www.amazon.com
 
USMCGrunt said:
If you haven't had the chance, this book is a great study about why these conflicts take place.

Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Explain Everything About the World (Politics of Place)​


Amazon.com: Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Explain Everything About the World (Politics of Place): 9781501121470: Marshall, Tim: Books

Buy Prisoners of Geography: Ten Maps That Explain Everything About the World (Politics of Place) on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders
www.amazon.com
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I'll have to add it to my Amazon wish list. I did read a book in the last few years (I don't recall the title) with the basic premise that geography explains EVERYTHING. It too was an interesting read.
 
A1Janitor said:
No more wars. Tired of the hawks in DC.

While our border remains unsecure, we care about Ukraine?

Seems weird with all the connections our government has with this country.
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One thing you can count on us never doing is this: American troops directly fighting Russian troops. We'll do proxy wars where Russia/China may be involved - but I don't see any U.S. president (or military advisor to the president) ever recommending deploying U.S. troops to fight Russian or Chinese troops. The most we'll do is equip Ukraine with armament.

Our borders are not "insecure" in the same way as Ukraine's. Poor analogy. Desperate people from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador - looking for a safer and better life - do not come close to an array of armed vehicles and thousands of soldiers armed with sophisticated weaponry.
 
Memphis9489 said:
One thing you can count on us never doing is this: American troops directly fighting Russian troops. We'll do proxy wars where Russia/China may be involved - but I don't see any U.S. president (or military advisor to the president) ever recommending deploying U.S. troops to fight Russian or Chinese troops. The most we'll do is equip Ukraine with armament.

Our borders are not "insecure" in the same way as Ukraine's. Poor analogy. Desperate people from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador - looking for a safer and better life - do not come close to an array of armed vehicles and thousands of soldiers armed with sophisticated weaponry.
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They also don’t traffic women and children in; they also don’t smuggle opioids and fentanyl in.

There is a legal avenue to come in.

The consequences could be as devastating.
 
I've heard "cleanup" comments on TV a few times now. They seem to perhaps be playing semantics. The key is that any "incursion by Russian military formations" will provoke a severe response. If you recall Crimea was taken over by "loose groups of partisans" which, of course, were actually Russian "paramilitary" who were not in uniform. I'm not sure that qualifies as a "military formation" and is what I would expect Russia to do again.
 
I don’t know how dedicated the Ukranian military is to defense of their homeland, but their recruiting Ads are definitely on point.

I’m definitely pulling for them. All they want is to be left alone to chart their own course.

I don’t mind trying to understand Putin’s point of view. No one has mentioned, however, that Putin/Russia cannot tolerate an aspiring Liberal Democracy on its borders, particularly one with such close cultural ties as Ukraine, also known as “little Russia”.

 
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UHBlackhawk said:
Not at all like Mexico or Canada aligning with China.
One of the things the Putin apologists leave out is the Russian history of brutalizing Ukraine. Stalin’s
policies in the early 1930s killed almost 4 million Ukrainians.
The Russians may view Ukraine as “the Midwest”, but Ukrainians have never wanted anything to do with their abusive neighbor.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Of course Soviet Union apologists such as The New York Times tried to downplay these famines, much as many now try to down play the threat to Ukraine.
Also, we made a promise to Ukraine after the Soviet Union fell that in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons we would guarantee their sovereignty.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
But I guess it was a pinky promise.
And much like another despot in the late 1930’s, this will not end with the Sudetenland…. Sorry… Ukraine. The Baltic nations will be next.
I think the press conference will go down in history along side Dean Acheson’s Press Club Speech.
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I agree. Other than stealing some land from Mexico we haven't brutalized Mexico or Canada and we're not sponsoring pro-US groups in either country (ok, maybe through the NBA and baseball). I think that if Mexico wanted to form a defensive alliance with China we'd be sending diplomats to sort it out and not amassing troops on their border.
I'm fascinated too by the Putin apologists from the right - this was usually the group that was most hawkish about Russia and communism. And now some of their comments make it sound like Putin is a nice guy just trying to protect his country. Putin wants power and I'd bet you're right about the Baltic nations being next in his sights.
Also, good point about Ukrainians wanting to break off from their abusive neighbor. Ukraine is a country whose citizens are deciding that they want to be associated with NATO and not with Russia.
 
Memphis9489 said:
One thing you can count on us never doing is this: American troops directly fighting Russian troops. We'll do proxy wars where Russia/China may be involved - but I don't see any U.S. president (or military advisor to the president) ever recommending deploying U.S. troops to fight Russian or Chinese troops. The most we'll do is equip Ukraine with armament.

Our borders are not "insecure" in the same way as Ukraine's. Poor analogy. Desperate people from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador - looking for a safer and better life - do not come close to an array of armed vehicles and thousands of soldiers armed with sophisticated weaponry.
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I would have to disagree. I live 29 miles from ground zero. The cartels are an army. They are armed to the teeth and number in the thousands and the central government has no control over them. I have friends who are Border Patrol supervisors. Some are assigned to the special mounted mountain units ( we have 10,000 foot mountains ). I have seen the game cam footage. Of armed special forces esque troops escorting goods and human traffic through. I have seen the footage of the cartel starting the forest fire that burned over sixty homes. And evacuated 50,000.

I think the idea that a country can control or overtake another should be obvious or look like troops amassed on a border is naive. We have been being overtaken at a leaky faucet rate for years.

Also, the investment China has made in the new and improved ports at Guaymas and Rocky Point should make you think. Why is China investing in rail and road and shrimp harvesting in Mexico???

A local woman was killed a few weeks ago just driving to her birthday dinner. Our daughter was the first car at the scene. If I hadn’t detained her to make her take her boxes out to her new house she might have been the one who died. Her car cut in half by a 16 year old American trafficker recruited by a tech savvy Cartel on Snapchat who makes billions in human trafficking. Daily.

The action of not closing the border. The inaction of enforcing the law and protecting the citizens of this Republic is at the least aiding and abetting drug, sex and human trafficking. The suffering is beyond words. Why are we facilitating it???

It’s my back yard.
Our high school team returning from an out of town game had to shelter in place and call law enforcement when illegals were hiding under the high school students cars. This is an issue. Every day.

Our borders are beyond insecure.
The Texas synagogue assault was a known person of concern who was issued a visa. Let’s talk about Boston. Or 9-11 and visas.

What about the people from every other country on Earth who waltz past my house? Who rob and kill and rape and the car accidents that kill innocents just keep adding up. The capture every day of prior known murderers and pedophiles or rapists? Those are what the agents catch. Guess how many get by?

I’m sorry. I’m frustrated. I will step off my soap box. I’m tired. Living on the border of a country I love whose sovereignty I believe in makes me question today the current policy. It makes me bitter and sad.

I apologize in advance for hijacking a thread.
 
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This thread is for the topic of the Ukraine Russia tension and potential military action, but has devolved into a political soapbox thread which is against forum policy.

Many have posted thoughtful comments regarding the topic. Others have bent it into a political agenda about US Border security.

Let's stay on topic please. This is NOT a political forum.
 
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While we debate the sovereignty of the Ukrainian border, I believe there is a conversation that should be happening about what is happening at our own border.

I am not trying to derail or make a scene on the forum that I respect. I personally believe that there is a direct correlation between protecting one border and ignoring another. I am not being political. My goal is not to stir the pot.
 
Heatherg21 said:
While we debate the sovereignty of the Ukrainian border, I believe there is a conversation that should be happening about what is happening at our own border.

I am not trying to derail or make a scene on the forum that I respect. I personally believe that there is a direct correlation between protecting one border and ignoring another. I am not being political. My goal is not to stir the pot.
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My friendly suggestion is to start a different on topic thread about US borders. You can see how long that one lasts before it’s shut down,

That way this Ukraine thread has a chance of not being shut down,

I am interested in discussing this subject , not US domestic policy or US borders that will only evolve into an argument once again and get this thread shut down as always seems to happen.





.
 
A1Janitor said:
Back to Ukraine and NATO:

www.wsj.com

Germany Blocks NATO Ally From Transferring Weapons to Ukraine

The refusal to permit Estonia to transfer artillery that originated in Germany points to strains in the Western alliance over Ukraine.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
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Germany should be taking more of a lead in NATO and bearing the lion’s share of defending itself and Western Europe from the Ruskies. It is not doing enough.

I don’t fully understand how the USA has a vital interest in defending Europe anymore. I don’t think it’s an easy subject to fully comprehend. But I’m sure economics and trade is a big part of it. I don’t think it’s a matter of preventing the “Commies” from taking over the World any longer.

P.S. - Hey France! Can we get a little participation please!
 
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kinnem said:
I'll have to add it to my Amazon wish list. I did read a book in the last few years (I don't recall the title) with the basic premise that geography explains EVERYTHING. It too was an interesting read.
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It may have been Guns, Germs, and Steel. The book was very popular and the author asserted the importance of geography on societies and civilization.
 
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