2.0 at USNA vs 2.5 NROTC

B

BlueFireWorks

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Why does Big Navy have different GPA requirements for NROTC mids and navy mids? NROTC mids take the same classes and often have worse professors. Is there logic behind this?
 
A1Janitor said:
Worse professors? How did you form this opinion?
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I should rephrase, professors maybe the same but the instruction maybe worse. If you go to a research school, your professors aren’t there to teach, teaching is their second priority. Also your going to spend about 2/5 of your time being taught by TAs. On top of that you have extremely Large class sizes. Taking all of this into consideration, it doesnt make sense why NROTC mids should have a higher standard.
 
Fewer demands on your life in ROTC vs USNA while working on those grades. Just think about the effort it takes to live at the academy with meals or cleaning your room being much bigger events.

EDIT: naps are only an event if you're doing it at the wrong time.
 
StPaulDad said:
Fewer demands on your life in ROTC vs USNA while working on those grades. Just think about the effort it takes to live at the academy with meals or naps or cleaning your room being much bigger events.
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Cooking your own meals is harder than having those meals being cooked for you. If your taking hard classes/involved in extra curriculars like most mids are you won’t have much time for naps either.
 
A1Janitor said:
I don’t know ... but I would guess it is based on statistics and analysis over time - and with their needs in mind?
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thanks, going through finals, just wanted some assurance its a decision routed in logic haha and not just "usna is harder"
 
BlueFireWorks said:
Cooking your own meals is harder than having those meals being cooked for you. If your taking hard classes/involved in extra curriculars like most mids are you won’t have much time for naps either.
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I liked cooking, and these days a lot of schools have 24 hour dining so there's no requirement to eat at a specific time (or place, with takeout) and certainly no squaring or other distractions. You don't have to clean your room at all if you don't choose to, and when needed you can delay those chores to make room in your schedule without worrying about inspections.

All schools have hard classes that take a lot of effort to excel in, and ROTC calls for a bunch of extra hours outside of class that are similar to some of what USNA requires. But there are extra lifestyle restrictions on academy students that aren't borne by folks at State U, the academy students carry a higher course load, and so on. I also believe that there's more grade inflation out in the ROTC schools than at the academies, but that would be hard to prove.

In the end, as mentioned above, it's almost certainly the case that there are supporting numbers that the requirements were derived from. As often as it might appear that numbers are just conjured up through some off-hand procto-numerology, it's often the case that too much staff effort went into a decision like that and it was analyzed to death. Regardless, you can't do much but study what's in front of you and get the grades where you are. Keep your head up, and good luck.
 
Interesting question. One that is new to me in my time here...usually it’s a same/similar subject matter, but this one is new!!

I’ll take a stab andoffer my opinion...not a doubt in my mind it’s the obligations required outside the academics at USNA, a military institution. And all that other stuff required. Standing watch. Parades. Noon formation. Alpha inspections. Company obligations like blue and gold, boards, watch. Even this Army Navy game? Sounds like “fun”, but in reality they leave at 0200, return at 0100...so there are 23 hrs gone from their ability to tend to their academics. Additionally, many of their classes are heavy towards additional military things (reports) that are time suckers.

I have a military son in regular college (not ROTC), an oldest that graduated regular college, and two at USNA. I’m familiar with ROTC (though not intimately). Hands down, from my owns collegiate experiences, the demands on ones time is stretched and stressed (as even studying on ones own time at a SA is stressful with company inputs happening 24/7 right outside your open dorm door). Imagine living with those big scary upperclass leadership, that ROTC students deal with occasionally in their day, 24/7. Underclass especially are under intentional stress (they cannot even walk normally).

So I’m confident saying that its a fair observation that the reason could be the constant, relentless, unforgiving demands on a students time from other people and obligations outside of academia. 24/7. Naps not allowed for example. Life at a SA, outside of the academics, is crazy the stuff they are required to do.

The last piece could be the course load they do take. There aren’t ‘electives’ that they can take that are easy, which help a GPA. Maybe NROTC doesn’t have that piece either in their graduation plan. But every class at USNA is designed with the military in mind, and they all have a nod towards that. General classes at regular college dont. It’s just different.

Personally? I always was of the opinion that NROTC would be more challenging in the sense that the success of the Mid is more up to them, as they aren’t at a place (USNA) where the entire staff and institution exists to graduate and commission the Mid. With lots of outside influences/choices that don’t exist at USNA (ie buddies and parties that aren’t in the program...all the freedom that does exist). I had never thought of the GPA piece, but in my mind, it 100 pct makes sense. The demands on their life/freedom/time require it.

*all pre/COVID* which makes everything wonky and weird, for certain.
 
The Navy may have a lower GPA threshold for the academy because they have more money and time invested in the student.
 
According to DS, naps are allowed at USNA.

I agree about the time crunch/demands at USNA, compared to regular college, but on the other hand, USNA mids don't have to shop for groceries, fix their meals, commute, etc. Not saying it's a wash but not saying going to civilian college is a walk in the park. I would dispute the class load - to graduate in 4 years at a civilian engineering college, you will be taking an 18-21 credit load and competing with people taking a more leisurely (i.e. 5 or 6 year) trip to graduation. who can spend 10 hours a week in one lab. Lastly (and I know others will dispute this), NROTC scholarship recipients are chosen mostly on academics (with leadership etc. as part of the package), whereas USNA appointees are chosen for a range of strengths - there are folks at USNA who would not have qualified academically for an NROTC scholarship but are very strong in other desirable qualities. From my distant vantage point, so far I would say USNA suffers from grade inflation, like everywhere else. But it is probably not fair to judge when school has mostly been virtual.
 
Not that this matters ... but you get a B in a class if you have an 89.9 average at USNA. Most other universities, that is a B +.
 
BlueFireWorks said:
Why does Big Navy have different GPA requirements for NROTC mids and navy mids?
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First, trying to figure out "Big Navy's" rationale for doing anything is kind of a fool's game...sometimes it is just what it is... :)

That said, what is the context of your question ? Graduation and Commissioning ? I've never seen any program where the standards are different once commissioned , but most programs have selection boards that will consider all factors, including undergraduate grades.

If you are referring to the requirement that USNA has a 2.0 graduation requirement, and NROTC is 2.5, I would suspect it is because Big Navy knows what they are getting with a USNA graduate with a 2.0; Navy controls the grading, the evaluation, and has had the opportunity to observe and evaluate for 4 years. Big Navy has no control or input into the grading at State U (except perhaps the Military Science classes), and observes the NROTC midshipman on a limited basis.

Is USNA harder to get good grades than State U ? Years ago, I would say most certainly. In my day, a 4.0 and Stars were pretty rare, and I would be willing to be that a large number of Classmates had GPA's in the 2.0-2.5 range. Certain professors took great pride in beating up the Midshipman (academically) and washing them out of their program (Is that the better professors that you are referring to ?) I think things are different now ..there is a changed mindset that all Midshipmen that are accepted have the ability to graduate, and the abundance of Stars on Uniforms (Supes List) suggests that 1) the Midshipmen are smarter than we were , or 2) grades are easier to get now.
 
Old Navy BGO said:
I think things are different now ..there is a changed mindset that all Midshipmen that are accepted have the ability to graduate, and the abundance of Stars on Uniforms (Supes List) suggests that 1) the Midshipmen are smarter than we were , or 2) grades are easier to get now.
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They should do a study on the parents of midshipmen. I suspect the parents today are much smarter than they were years ago, and are able to pass on more well rounded and smarter candidates.
 
I had a few friends who left USNA voluntarily (it wasn't the right fit for them) and were around 2.8-3.2 students. Once they left and applied to other schools most schools bumped their GPAs much higher. Also, many finished with at the other universities with much higher GPAs, many in the 3.8+ range.

You are right at USNA, you don't have some responsibilities, but you have a whole host of other ones. Formations 2-3 times a day, watch 1-2 times/month, the PRT requirements are higher than the NROTC/fleet requirements. This doesn't include other time requirements with pro knowledge, which NROTC does, but its usually part of a lab that gets credit. Also, not every ROTC student is spending a great amount of time worrying about cooking their next meal. Many live on campus and use the dining hall. One item I do dispute is the part of taking the same classes. Tier 1 majors I would say yes they probably do in terms of engineering. For those not Tier 1, even though NROTC requires Calc and Calc Based Physics, it does not account for the mandatory engineering, thermo, chemistry and other courses. Tier 2 has some differences, but not as much as Tier 3. Someone who is Tier 3 is not taking those at their university. Not every USNA or NROTC Midshipmen's experience is the same, especially with the variability between NROTC units and even USNA companies/class years. The bottom line at the end of the day you choose your own path that is best for you. If the 24x7 environment is not right for you, then a SA or SMC is not the right place for someone. Each NROTC unit has its own nuances also. Its why its important to find the right one for each Mid.
 
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A1Janitor said:
Not that this matters ... but you get a B in a class if you have an 89.9 average at USNA. Most other universities, that is a B +.
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Mmmmm... I was a college professor for decades, and if I ever gave a student with an 89.9 lower than some flavor of an A, I am pretty sure that I would have been drawn and quartered. (I don't know how course evals and the like are used at USNA, but at the schools I taught at, the students are the consumer of the product and you had to make them happy. Jeez, I actually got one of my Dept. in trouble by catching too many cheaters. Seriously. The Provost said that the Dept must be doing something wrong if so many students were cheating.) DS actually got the 89.9/B final grade in a course, so I know that happens. But I never saw the same in my time teaching at civilian schools.
 
DKTKT said:
I don't know how course evals and the like are used at USNA, but at the schools I taught at, the students are the consumer of the product and you had to make them happy.
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Sadly this is the situation at too many colleges. Inflate grades, make students happy, presumably they’ll love their college experience, then tell everyone about it and make donations. Sigh.

At the flagship state university where I teach, my department head takes a refreshing stance: Students are not the customer. Employers are. (Students are the consumer of our product, which is education.) So in her view, the school owes employers a product that’s worth their money, not one steeped in grade inflation and false reassurance.

Like I said, it’s a refreshing — and uncommon — view. Too bad, because it’s ultimately the students who suffer when they enter the less-forgiving professional world thinking they’re all that.
 
The OP's post was news (and new) to me. Since we're all guessing, I'll take my shot. :)

I wonder if it's b/c NROTC mids have more flexibility in their schedules beyond the courses they are required to take as part of NROTC. Thus they COULD (and I emphasize the word) take "fluff" courses to boost their GPAs. At USNA, there are no "easy" courses.

Also, historically, USNA grades were much lower across the board than at civilian colleges / universities. As I've said before, in our day, a 3.25 put you in the top 15% of your class and many, many mids were in the 2.0 - 2.2 range. Thus, a 2.0 at USNA probably equated to a 2.5 or higher at most civilian schools. As Old Navy BGO says, that's the case today, or at least not to the same extent .
 
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