2.0 at USNA vs 2.5 NROTC

[NavyHoops]

I graduated with a 2.6 from USNA and was smack in the middle of my class. Multiple grad degrees and well over a point higher in each and so much easier. I even did one of them while mostly in Iraq or Afghanistan. Plenty of friends that were 3.0 types at USNA went to Ivy League grad schools and finished top of their class. I do agree grad school it’s actually some effort to get a C.

 

[Overwhelmed]

Could grad school just seem easier because you are focusing on a particular subject matter that likely interests you?

 

[A1Janitor]

Could grad school just seem easier because you are focusing on a particular subject matter that likely interests you?

I asked my brother who got his PhD and is a professor.

He said they give As and Bs for doctorate program. If you get several Cs - they determine you aren’t for the program, and push you out with a masters degree. Where he got his PhD - there was a requirement to maintain a 3.0.

For masters programs - he said it’s hard to get a C.

 

[MidCakePa]

I teach at our flagship state university, where for each class we’re instructed to target a mean grade of 3.0 for undergrads and 3.3 for grad students. I’m guessing most other schools have a similar policy. So while there may personal reasons for someone getting better grades in grad school, there seem to also be systemic reasons.

Which takes me back many years, to when I was deciding between law school and business school. A buddy who was midway through his MBA encouraged me to follow his path because grades weren’t as important in business as they were in law. “They call it B-school for a reason,” he said. I followed suit, and yes, my grad-school GPA was higher than my undergrad GPA.

 

[nuensis]

It's not the same number. NROTC MIDN don't take the same classes.

USNA uses CQPR, not academic GPA. This includes aptitude for commissioning grades (i.e. MIDN ranking within company), PE courses (Boxing, Wrestling, Martial Arts 1&2, Swimming 1&2, two semesters of PE elective), and PRT (NROTC uses fleet standards, good medium/good high is around the failure mark for USNA) that factor directly into the calculation, in addition to the LEAD academic classes (Leadership 1 and 2, Ethics, Nav 1&2, JO Practicum, etc) and core (Calc, Physics, Thermo, Weapons, Systems lab, EE, Boats/Planes/Dirt, Cyber 1 & 2, Civics/government, Naval History and History elective (European, Asian, or World)). And then we start talking about the major matrix and required electives; for a Group 1 and some Group 2 majors,, standard course load is 18-21 credits.

PRT isn't pass/fail, it's a D- letter grade worth 5-10% (fudging the numbers, it's been too long) of your CQPR if you run a 10:30 1.5 mile. Aptitude/leadership (not the classes, this is your company ranking and company officer/SEL evaluation starting with Plebe Summer onward for each semester, mirrors the fleet FITREP system in that only a limited number of MIDN can get As or Bs) is another 5-10%.

Probably goes down to statistics across the nation for all NROTC units, 2.5 at nationwide average for NROTC is equal to 2.0 at USNA. Some universities suffer from grade deflation. Some suffer from grade inflation. Someone crunched the numbers and considered that USNA counts a bunch of stuff in CQPR that a normal university doesn't consider in GPA.

 

[WT Door]

Interesting discussion on grades. Each year there were some hard earned 4.0 QPRs back in the day (that 's a 2.0 first semester + 2.0 second semester). Upperclass academic counseling consisted of derisively telling some plebes that if they did any better they’d be Rhodes Scholar candidates meaning the AC Board would tell them to hit the “Road” - you’re outta here. Just a smidge of grade inflation for a few would have been welcomed. 69.9%? C’mon man. Rounding that baby up a tenth would have helped many. In the end, whether USNA or ROTC one will be addressed as Ensign, 2nd LT, Sir or Ma’am. Then the real grading starts.

 

[OldRetSWO]

Interesting discussion on grades. Each year there were some hard earned 4.0 QPRs back in the day (that 's a 2.0 first semester + 2.0 second semester). Upperclass academic counseling consisted of derisively telling some plebes that if they did any better they’d be Rhodes Scholar candidates meaning the AC Board would tell them to hit the “Road” - you’re outta here. Just a smidge of grade inflation for a few would have been welcomed. 69.9%? C’mon man. Rounding that baby up a tenth would have helped many. In the end, whether USNA or ROTC one will be addressed as Ensign, 2nd LT, Sir or Ma’am. Then the real grading starts.

First semester plebe year QPR - 2.08

 

[justme]

I teach at our flagship state university, where for each class we’re instructed to target a mean grade of 3.0 for undergrads and 3.3 for grad students. I’m guessing most other schools have a similar policy. ...

To me, that seems like a short-sighted decision made in order to appease USNWR and the paying entity.

At UNC, gpa went from an average of 2.49 in 1967 to 3.21 in 2008. A report a few years ago showed 40+% of all grades given out are As, and an additional 40+ are Bs. 97% of all grades were A-C. How can someone determine successful growth from a college grad if sleepwalking earns you a 3.0 ???


Princeton tried to combat grade inflation not long ago by capping the % of As to 35. They got so much resistance they removed the caps. The logic was that median GPA at Princeton would look worse than a median GPA at Harvard/Yale and therefore hurt the graduates career options.

 

[NavyHoops]

First semester plebe year QPR - 2.08

1.66 for me, but didn't fail anything. I did get some quality time with the Dean, Supt and Dant! Not recommended. I did repeat one class the next semester to raise my QPR and finished with 2.16 that semester which made me SAT with the replacing the D from the first semester. I did summer school and was never in the hole again. I actually made Dant's list my youngster year. I was a much better physics student than chem. I think H2O is still about as good as it gets for me in chem.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

First semester plebe year QPR - 2.08

1.66 for me, but didn't fail anything.

I got my bu** kicked at NAPS- we had two math classes and I had solid F's at Christmas. Fortunately, the light switch turned on and I learned how to learn. I had a bit of face time with the NAPS CO as well.

After NAPS, I did pretty well -- I think I ended up with a 3.4 ish, which was top 10%., and had Stars one semester. I was also top 10% in my Law School class but that was a whole different experience.

 

[NavyHoops]

I got my bu** kicked at NAPS- we had two math classes and I had solid F's at Christmas. Fortunately, the light switch turned on and I learned how to learn. I had a bit of face time with the NAPS CO as well.

After NAPS, I did pretty well -- I think I ended up with a 3.4 ish, which was top 10%., and had Stars one semester. I was also top 10% in my Law School class but that was a whole different experience.

You nailed the part about learning how to learn. I had to learn that sleep was also key for me. More sleep allowed me to retain more info in each class and it was less of a battle for me. I think this is a curve that every college freshman learns, a SA just adds alot of complexity with all the additional duties that are piled one. Also as a basketball player class time some weeks was near none for me. Learning to ask for help was another item I had to learn. Also getting non-traditional in my approach. Maybe I was missing class, but there was another section I could attend in an off period or a class slightly behind. Working with my profs to help get the class time was valuable for me, especially in something like Sea Nav that was totally new. Even an extra class section of Calc helped me alot.

 

[DKTKT]

I quit as a professor of engineering several years back and went back to the private sector, in part because of the "student as the consumer" ethos (I taught at a private university). They were "the paying customers" (actually their parents) and demanded an A or B. I gave out C's and on rare occasions, D's. I bent over backward to help struggling students bring their game up. I mostly taught seniors. Very disappointing. I was "asked" by the Department Head to not give any C's or D's. There were some really bright students (I hired two of them) but some that you wondered what the heck they were doing spending their parents' money like that. My last year, I got torched by several students on the end of semester faculty review because of my grading. I was willing to give all A's if it was A work. I taught one senior-level course (it was a challenging, quantitative modeling elective) in which I spent the first two weeks teaching dimensional analysis and unit conversion (something you should have down cold your first semester in college).

When I interview candidates (most have advanced degrees), if I see more than one B on a transcript for graduate classes, I get worried, because grades should be meaningless in grad school and if a professor gives an MS or PhD student in engineering a C, that is a huge red flag for me. In some cases, I will call up the professor to discuss before making a hiring decision and invariably I get a carefully worded "watch out". So grades do matter in grad school - just not the way you might think. I will always forgive Cs (and even Ds) the first two years of undergrad as long as I see As and Bs junior and senior year.

I feel like I could have written this, except for the reaction to non-A grades in grad school part. I had a grad prof tell us we could work alone or in groups on coursework (math proofs). Since I was married, living a good distance from campus and sharing a car with my employed spouse, I ended up working alone. And then the prof gave me a *C* for not making as much progress on the proofs as the group, which was the entire rest of the class. If she had had an expectation or rubric for how far a person working alone should get, and I had gotten the grade because I didn't accomplish that, different story. But instead she lectured me about the importance of working with others. I wonder what that prof would say if you called about me? (Yes, I am still not over it decades later. LOL)

 

[usna1985]

My first semester was a 2.62. First time in my academic life I'd received Cs. I struggled even worse with Calc 3 and physics youngster year. I was hurt by not having taken calc (only pre-calc) or physics in h.s. (in those days, girls generally weren't exactly encouraged to pursue math and science in h.s.). By 2/C year, I was earning at least Bs in STEM and actually managed a 4.0 one semester. What I learned was the importance of doing the work every single day in STEM courses especially (as compared to h.s., where could mail it in some days) as well as going for EI regularly.

Our grad school had a mandatory B mean. That meant that, for every grade above B, there had to be an equivalent below it. As a result, well over 80% got Bs (B- to B+) in every course. It took a LOT to earn even an A-. Conversely, it was hard to "earn" a C. Once you realized you were in the "B" group, you essentially did the minimum b/c you knew you weren't one of the elite who'd receive As and you were doing enough / smart enough not to get Cs. Simplified life. A few years after I left, they went to a B+ mean. Go figure.

 

[ders_dad]

DS told me USNA is going to A B+. B B- C+ C C- etc. for fall 2021 because there are too many youngsters and plebes with a 4.0

 

[8th Wing Refugee]

DS told me USNA is going to A B+. B B- C+ C C- etc. for fall 2021 because there are too many youngsters and plebes with a 4.0

Wow - have things changed. In the olden days (when they would post the top quarterly grades by class on the company bulletin board) I only remember one or two people per class per company at a 4.0.

 

[Overwhelmed]

It would be interesting to see a multi-decade graph comparing the average cost of college and the SAT scores of academy/ROTC scholarship winners.

Maybe it isn't grade inflation, just higher quality students trying to afford college.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

It would be interesting to see a multi-decade graph comparing the average cost of college and the SAT scores of academy/ROTC scholarship winners.

Maybe it isn't grade inflation, just higher quality students trying to afford college.

We all know that the cost of college has gone up (even against inflation) over the last 30 years., and I've heard Admissions briefings that SAT /ACT scores and GPA's have gone up. However, I don't think that necessarily equates to "higher quality students trying to afford college." I think it has more to do with a greater emphasis on Academics over other admissions criteria (Leadership, Service, Athletics). What would be interesting is to see how the Whole Person Multiple algorithm has changed over years. "Trying to afford college" is not a good reason to attend a Service Academy.

 

[Overwhelmed]

Look how many students join the National Guard to pay for their tuition at state colleges and universities. The military is constantly promoting it as a way to pay for college.
I agree it isn't a wise reason to attend an SA but I am sure it happens more often now than in the past.

 

[Heatherg21]

This has really been an interesting thread to read. I would agree with others who discussed the burden of not enough hours in every day at USNA. Our son had solid time management skills leaving high school and really had to up his game for his first semester at USNA.

For those that are landlubbers, the extra time spent in the pool for remedial swim is a huge loss of available time. Ours definitely stood more than 2-3 watches a month, lots of varsity athletes cannot stand their watches and make all practices. He happily stood several for his roomie who is a varsity athlete. And, I am so grateful he has a stellar reapplicant roomie who has been a great support to our plebe and has a year of college experience to boot.

I think one thing that really is a factor, is the individual NROTC units. Not all are created equal. When looking at NROTC schools, he noticed that many were a 'show up once or twice a week, check-in and run 1.5 miles' type of unit. He had selected Norwich. He was looking for a more focused unit than say our local state university. He interviewed at the local state university and when it was over, the USNA grad who had interviewed him told him that if he was looking for an intense, military NROTC unit, then this wasn't the place for him.

As I am sure is true of many institutions (high school included), there are some professors who just flat out will not give a student an A. When reading through reviews of professors for next semester, DS noted one who is apparently known for having never given an A. I don't know whether that is true or not, but that makes a 4.0 really hard to obtain. While he was a stand out in high school academically, he has stated that there are plenty of mids who are much smarter than he is.

Of all the grades that mattered to DS this semester, the one that was the most important to him was aptitude. We were on a walk last week when he checked his final grades. Let's just say he was very happy. He did say, that the professors he had this semester were incredible. The knowledge he garnered and the mentorship and availability of these professors at USNA are simply impressive to me.

He had NROTC as his plan B, and I am sure would have had a great experience freezing his tail off at Norwich. Once in the fleet, I doubt anyone is asking about your transcript or cares to hear where you graduated from or what your GPA was. I do think the leadership present on the campus at USNA and the exposure to said leadership and their fleet experience is invaluable to those who choose to soak it all in.

I realize I segued a bit from the OP's post. I digress and apologize in advance.

 

[A1Janitor]

Of all the grades that mattered to DS this semester, the one that was the most important to him was aptitude. We were on a walk last week when he checked his final grades. Let's just say he was very happy.

My son was very happy with that too. The new system was an upgrade.