disenrolled 22 days before graduation

Wing77

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I agree that long-term goals should be considered - for example, if you want Stanford Law School it might not be the best option (and you better have a planB no matter where you go). But with a great GRE most good state university grad programs have no problem with TESC and COSC. A few additional things to consider:

1. These are state schools - TESC was almost merged with Rutgers in 2010.
2. Plenty of grads go on to good grad schools - even grad schools like MIT.
3. If one is inclined to want to attend a Stanford graduate school, it is also unlikely that the undergrad school you will need to do so will only require 30 residency credits. Most state schools require 56-60, and top flight undergraduate schools like Princeton will require a lot more. A few - like Indiana University (I think) - will go down to 30 required.
4. You can call the grad schools you are considering and ask them as to this issue.

I am not advocating TESC for everyone or even advocating it at all - just noting that it is a viable option and one to explore, especially if $$$ is a major issue and there is a repayment sum pending.

Tough situation for all involved.



Personally, I would think long and hard about doing one of those programs if going to strong grad program is an option they are pursuing.

As a parent with a rising sr. at VT applying for grad school, they look at everything, including where the undergrad degree. I am from NJ, and never heard of Thomas Edison, granted it is for adults only, it is an online version of college, but still their reputation as a college may be a player. Accreditation is not everything to take into consideration.

Many kids now because of the low employment opportunities are taking one more yr to get a grad degree. That fact alone ramps up the competition of admission applicants.

It might be better to also just do the last 30 credits at another college just for the sake of the diploma regarding their future opportunities, be it straight into the workforce, or onto a grad degree.

The financial savings by writing a check and getting a degree quicker may come back and bite them later on when it comes to starting salaries and quality of employment opportunities. Think about it, if they went back home to their IS flagship school, tuition would be about 20K for 2 yrs., 10K if they can do it in a yr. They can than get into a better grad school program, and that can give them a stronger chance of a higher starting salary, which would quickly make up the 10/20K additional debt.

Grad degrees today are like undergrad degrees in the late 80's for this generation. It is no longer a rarity. My DD, my nieces all intend to get their grad degrees. It is not an if for them. My DD and one of my nieces are both majoring in education. That should show how common it is now across the workforce. Most colleges offer a combined undergrad/grad program too. Our DS roommate freshman yr at his college was enrolled in such a program. These 3 examples, all attend flagship colleges in their states (NJ, VA and MD).
Again reinforcing why going to one of those 2 colleges may not assist if their state colleges are competitive for undergrad admissions. The school already filled some of those slots when they entered as freshman.
 

Pima

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Quick question.

Is cheating on a test less of an offense than disobeying an order?

Just asking.

Wing,

I get what you are saying.

This is indeed a difficult time, and every option we can think of will help them.

I was playing the opposite to make sure they think about it before making a decision. The fact is they are late in the game for fall semester to get that degree, and although that sounds great, they still have time to talk to admissions or grad school to see how competitive their package will be for winter semester.

It is also why I posted look into internships. If I am right, they are in TX, and companies like TI, are HQd there. We don't know their major.

Thomas Edison, might not be worth the cost, if UTA is highly competitive for grad school.
 
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bigdog77515

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May 7, 2013
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If I was to be brutally honest, I wonder why on earth they did this. I can't see how any C1C would risk this their last semester, unless they wanted out. As others have stated this issue has always been addressed multiple times every yr. He know the huge risk he was undertaking the moment they slid under the sheets. He had 3 1/2 yrs of being warned. He gets a monthly stipend, enough to pay out of pocket for a hotel. As a C1C he probably had a car too, to drive an "visit" her at the hotel for a couple of hrs.

Sorry, bigdog, but that is the question in my mind. Also, sorry, but as an AF wife of 21 yrs, and a Mom of an O1, with a GF that I expect to be our Daughter In law, I would have issues with her decision too. In every relationship, someone has to be the sound voice.

Had to say it, not from a judging factor, but from a Mom factor. IMPHO, she is also culpable for his diis-enrollment. I would want to know why she risked it all. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see this is not allowed at the AFA. She risked his career too. JMPO.
the girlfriend is a civilian and VERY young. she is about to be a daughter-in-law and i almost have as many questions about her lack in judgement as i do about his.

the story goes: it was late, they were getting up early to play golf and made the TERRIBLE decision to stay there instead of taking her home and going back early in the morning to pick her up.

it has crossed my mind that it was done on purpose (subconsciously or conciously), but he obviously knew the monetary ramifications as well as educationally. we'll never know!

i will preface this next statement by saying i lay sole blame on my son, however, the couple of missed classes, and obviously the sleepover never happened until she moved to colorado springs. like a deer in rut, i guess!
 

JMS

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Jul 2, 2011
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the girlfriend is a civilian and VERY young. she is about to be a daughter-in-law and i almost have as many questions about her lack in judgement as i do about his.

the story goes: it was late, they were getting up early to play golf and made the TERRIBLE decision to stay there instead of taking her home and going back early in the morning to pick her up.

it has crossed my mind that it was done on purpose (subconsciously or conciously), but he obviously knew the monetary ramifications as well as educationally. we'll never know!

i will preface this next statement by saying i lay sole blame on my son, however, the couple of missed classes, and obviously the sleepover never happened until she moved to colorado springs. like a deer in rut, i guess!
Bigdog, I think you have a very clear-eyed view of the whole mess. I am not asking about your 'very young' comment, but I trust your DS has not compounded his problems owing to age.
All in all, you have loads of advice here, and much of it centers on getting qualified advice from legal pros. My own opinion is that after one exhausts any appeals regards reinstatement ( if I read correctly, his shortcomings are all recent and clustered around GFs move to Colorado; pleading temporary insanity may be worth a try if the longer record is squeaky clean), one must focus on mitigating the payment (damage control for those of us with that background). It seems that if one can get out after two years Scot-free, then perhaps your initial position may be to pay the last two years, and work from there. Alternatively, perhaps DS would appreciate the value of work (and have time to mature) if he went enlisted. Asking for the enlisted option with no payback may be a good start point.
 

Christcorp

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Jcleppe: The difference in the unauthorized guest, is not an "Academy" thing. At a "Regular" base, you have a residence. An apartment, house, etc... You can have anyone in your residence you want. The TZO (The Cadet Area) of the academy is a RESTRICTED/CONTROLLED area. It doesn't matter if it's his girl friend. As I said previously, he would have been in the same trouble if he brought his mother, father, sister, or brother in. There's a reason the cadet area is a controlled area. There's a reason the dining facility is practically bomb proof. This is the same situation if an active duty missile officer wanted to show the underground missile alert facility to their girl friend. There are procedures to have guests visit. Granted, the academy dorm isn't the same as a missile alert facility, but we're NOT TALKING about their apartment or house either. There, you can invite anyone over any time; day or night. But this isn't the same.
 

tradecraft

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Apr 24, 2013
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While the other incidents at the AFA may be off topic in regard to this issue, it does bring up a question. Cheating is against the rules at the Academy, it's also against the rules when in the Regular AF. When the cadet graduates and heads off to complete their training, Flight School or other, cheating again will not be tolerated and could result in being kicked out. Having your girlfriend spend the night with you is most likely not an offense that would get you kicked out, this was an Academy rule. To me I would much rather have seen all those that cheated be removed rather then for the infractions this cadet has made. Seems like they kept the wrong cadets in my mind.



It seems more a case of not understanding the Academy life then not understanding the Military as a whole. Rules are rules, I understand that, it is just that cadets at the academy have many rules that are not found in the Regular Military. Cadets that commission from other sources never have these rules, when they enter the regular military they don't experience a big shift in rules and regulations. I do agree that those that attend an Academy do so knowing what the rules are, whether they match that of the military as a whole or not, and they are required to abide by them.

I just think that if they are going to have rules, they need to apply the punishment equally, allowing those that cheat to stay while sending someone else packing does not seem like an honorable thing to do. I know there is probably more behind the story, but there was enough in front of the story to make this kind of opinion.

PIMA,

I read your post above and will assume it covers what I just posted as well.
From what has been presented, it's difficult to assess how the decision was made to disenroll the OP's cadet. It's funny how the same people who make negative comments that is totally unrelated to the OP's original post are from a different SA. Yes there have been cheating in the past and they are dealt with on an case to case basis. There was usage of a website to verify math calculations and it has been dealt with. A recent cadet was disciplined for not citing homework references. The difference between being disenrolled and given a second chance may be based on the severity and if the cadet comes forward and admits an oversight or waits until a board review decides.
It is careless to generalize that "honor didn't mean much" because unless you're at the board review and was at the Superintendent's shoes when the decision is made to give a second chance or to let go, no one knows.
 

bigdog77515

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Bigdog, I think you have a very clear-eyed view of the whole mess. I am not asking about your 'very young' comment, but I trust your DS has not compounded his problems owing to age.
i should have said young and IMMATURE... less than 20 y/o
 

icarus

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Jul 4, 2012
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it is official! disenrolled with a recommendation that he not be enlisted. obviously, this has been going on for about a month now, so there's no real surprise. it's a waiting game now. thanks for the support!
Thanks for sharing this unfortunate experience with the rest of us.
When you say waiting-
whats worse case scenario and what would be at the very least, best recourse?
 

usafa2012mom

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Feb 15, 2011
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As a parent my heart breaks for you

bigdog,

Just sending my thoughts and prayers your way as you digest and then proceed through this major life changing disappointment. I admire that you acknowledge your son's severe lack of judgement in this situation and are not trying to make excuses for him. He basically, just lost his head over a girl and made some really, really dumb decisions. Of course, it is not the end of the world, but, it is indeed a very sad turn of events. My heart breaks for you, your son and your entire family. :frown: And I appreciate your courage in putting this out here for others to learn from, maybe it will help some other cadet not make the same mistake.

God bless you all
 

aglages

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my son is being disenrolled from USAFA this week (22 days before graduating with an aero degree) for having too many demerits.
..if I read correctly, his shortcomings are all recent and clustered around GFs move to Colorado..
I interpreted the OPs initial post differently. Wasn't there an ongoing issue regarding an unspecified number of "too many demerits"?
 

PDub

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I just think that if they are going to have rules, they need to apply the punishment equally, allowing those that cheat to stay while sending someone else packing does not seem like an honorable thing to do. I know there is probably more behind the story, but there was enough in front of the story to make this kind of opinion.
Having been a voting member in the several of the fourth-class cadets' CSRPs (Cadet Sanction Review Panels) from last year, and being an honor officer at the Academy, I urge you not to confuse an honor violation with a regulation violation. They're simply handled differently. The honor code was created by cadets, enforced by cadets, and when someone is found to be in violation, the punishment is recommended by a select group of high level cadets to be forwarded to the Commandant and Superintendent. If at any point the honor process seems unfair or insufficient we will do the best we can to change it.

Once a cadet is found in violation of the code (with multiple steps of due process per se), several factors are considered for determining their punishment: time under the code, forthrightness during the process, egregiousness of offense, and type of report (admit, self-admit, or deny). The honor code is not a rule, and as such is not treated like a rule. The due process is much different for breaking a rule, and determination of punishments for breaking a rule is also very different - a comparison should never be made between rules/regs and the honor system.

Having shined some light on how part of the honor process works, I hope this cleared some confusion. But you said that it is not honorable for USAFA to have different punishments for breaking different rules and codes. This is quite confusing to me. Doubting the honor and integrity of the institution is not a light accusation, and I take this very seriously. I ask you to please expound your views on this topic.
 

kdc246

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I think PDub that there are scenarios out there that confuse people. A cadet who get low grades and otherwise is a stellar cadet is dismissed for academics. Yet a cadet who cheats and gets caught is retained through the honor system. So, then you are telling most that in order to stay, you are better off cheating to get a passing grade and taking your chances with the Honor review board. (this is not what the original discussion was, but since it was thrown in...)This has happened and probably will continue to happen. Neither is a good outcome in anyones point of view. It just happens. We all make decisions we have to live with. The original poster knows this, I know this, most people on this board know this. Every situation is unique, I think we only see the remnants here and not the process. Some have inside views (like you), because you are there and have lived/are living it. The honor system isn't being bashed, just questioned. That is how change comes about, we question processes and try to make them equitable for all in all situations. I know in a "dream world" this is possible. Lots of things get thrown around here, it is a place to vet ideas and sort through solutions and outcomes.
 

JMS

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Bigdog, I can only imagine your pain. I am sorry that you have to go through this. I really appreciate your willingness to share the account. Knowing first hand about how 'kids' can screw up in such creative ways, I know I would have been inclined to 'circle the wagons' and not say much. Your DS's account has become an object lesson for many others and I thank you for sharing for that reason.
I pray that all will be well for you, your family and your son.
 

LineInTheSand

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This will be rough on your son too. This is one of those important times where parents need to let their kids know they love them even when they mess up.
 

Christcorp

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The "sleepover" could have been the first and the final straw for a C1C.
+100

This is not the same thing as demerits for missing a class or a uniform issue. This isn't even in the same category as cheating on a test. And having ANYONE in the cadet area without prior approval is the very first No-No that ALL cadets understand. This rule doesn't even have the possibility of being vague, subjective, etc... Everyone knows underage drinking is punishable. Everyone knows drugs are punishable. Everyone knows going off campus without a pass is punishable. Well, every cadet knows that bringing any non-cadet into the cadet area without approval is punishable.
 

Jcleppe

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Having shined some light on how part of the honor process works, I hope this cleared some confusion. But you said that it is not honorable for USAFA to have different punishments for breaking different rules and codes. This is quite confusing to me. Doubting the honor and integrity of the institution is not a light accusation, and I take this very seriously. I ask you to please expound your views on this topic.
Never meant to say I doubted the honor and integrity of the institution. Frankly I'm a little surprised that cheating would be classified an Honor Code violation and not a rule violation.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of rules, from the time I spent in the Armed Forces I saw my share of rules that would make civilians shake their heads. If they said you had to hop on one foot, well, you hopped on one foot, don't do it and there was hell to pay. I'm not trying to make excuses, the cadet in question broke a known rule and regulation, the punishment is not out of line based on the regulations at the AFA.
 

Luigi59

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If at any point the honor process seems unfair or insufficient we will do the best we can to change it.
Then add a few words to the end of the code, more appropriate that way.

"We will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do....except when we tolerate those who cheat, as long as they admit they cheated, despite knowing the code from Day 1.

Any code with the words "will not tolerate" and then "tolerates" the exact thing prohibited, is not a code, it's merely a behavior suggestion.
 

Rage_14

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Then add a few words to the end of the code, more appropriate that way.

"We will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do....except when we tolerate those who cheat, as long as they admit they cheated, despite knowing the code from Day 1.

Any code with the words "will not tolerate" and then "tolerates" the exact thing prohibited, is not a code, it's merely a behavior suggestion.
I am not sure why honor is being brought up about this. This is a regulations problem, not a honor problem.
 
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