disenrolled 22 days before graduation

The credit earned, are YOURS. The diploma is awarded by the school. A diploma from a school usually includes the phrase/wording/etc... of such things as "IN GOOD STANDINGS". This is common among most/all colleges/universities.

But this is totally up to the school. The academy would not be the first school to NOT AWARD a diploma/degree from their institution. The academy may very well award him his diploma. They may not. That is totally at their discretion. No different than a civilian student getting disenrolled from a university for a prank that went wrong or some serious offense. They may have taken the classes and earned the credits, but the university isn't required to "AWARD" you a diploma.

You'll have to wait and see what the academy decides in this situation. Your son should ask. But again, this is another one of those case by case situations.

son just texted that he talked to registar and if you aren't allowed to be commissioned then you can't receive a diploma.
 
CC ok next question:

If the Academy Disenrolls him could he go through OTS or a semester of another ROTC program prove himself and then commission. Thus no payment of debt and possibly earn another flight slot?

When an individual leaves the military; whether from the academy, from ROTC, from enlisted, or resigning a commission; the discharge papers (For lack of a better word), states whether you qualify to return to the military. When an individual is disenrolled from the academy, it will specifically say if he can return as enlisted. If he CAN'T, then he definitely can't return as an officer from any source. But each one says specifically what they are eligible for.
 
son just texted that he talked to registar and if you aren't allowed to be commissioned then you can't receive a diploma.

That is in fact the norm. From most schools. I say it's an individual thing, because I know of 2 individuals who left the academy in the last semester. 1 for medical reasons and 1 for a family hardship. Each received their diploma. I do believe the family hardship case, the individual returned later on to go into the National Guard. (Not sure if he got commissioned or not).
 
they are getting married in june :thumbdown:

sorry, but nobody in the family is "for" the wedding at this point. that has been a major point of contention in the last week.

In light of what their immaturity and foolishness has caused, I hope the wedding is in front of the Justice of the Peace and a reception consisting of a cake from the grocery store and a jug of tea.
 
CC I am not sure that is completely accurate. I believe you can be disenrolled and still have a recommend for commission.

BigDog, So sorry for the heaviness you must be feeling at this time. None greater than what your son's loss and grief is at this time. I ask the questions with the hope your son will shake off the shock of this and lets start googling regs and get focused on our next plan of action. Does he earn his degree? Was he in good academic standing etc? Something to fight for. Young adults make mistakes thank God it wasn't some horrible felony but rules broken from his institution. His life is not over, he just needs some guidance. There are a lot of intelligent people on this forum.....someone out there must know the regs. and lets start planning plan B.

I wish only the best for you and your son
 
CC I am not sure that is completely accurate. I believe you can be disenrolled and still have a recommend for commission.

BigDog, So sorry for the heaviness you must be feeling at this time. None greater than what your son's loss and grief is at this time. I ask the questions with the hope your son will shake off the shock of this and lets start googling regs and get focused on our next plan of action. Does he earn his degree? Was he in good academic standing etc? Something to fight for. Young adults make mistakes thank God it wasn't some horrible felony but rules broken from his institution. His life is not over, he just needs some guidance. There are a lot of intelligent people on this forum.....someone out there must know the regs. and lets start planning plan B.

I wish only the best for you and your son

I did not say you couldn't. I said it will SAY WHAT YOU CAN DO on your separation orders. e.g it will say if you can come back in enlisted. Until you get the separation papers, you don't know.
 
son just texted that he talked to registar and if you aren't allowed to be commissioned then you can't receive a diploma.

I was curious if this was correct - because the Academy does have to answer to the regional accreditation authorities with respect to academic issues - IF they want to keep their accreditation. But I'm betting they simply have to publish the degree grant requirements in the Catalogue - so I looked in the Catalogue:

-------

Graduation Requirements
To graduate you must, a) demonstrate an aptitude for commissioned service and leadership, b) be satisfactory in conduct,
c) be proficient in physical education and military training, d) complete the requirements for the core curriculum and for an
academic major, and e) have a minimum cumulative and core GPA of 2 .00.

-------

(a) seems to cover it. But this raised the question of whether anyone is allowed to graduate from USAFA without meeting one of these requirements - for example, below a 2.0.

As some others posted, he may want to make sure to exhaust all avenues of appeal/review on all issues (separately) - disenrollment, commission elsewhere, diploma, etc.

I hope his story is making the rounds with the cadets and can be used for some good as a learning experience. I know that might not help him, but maybe a grain a good can come of it. The fact that he was intelligent enough to get into USAFA (even with these mistakes later) and having a strong family support structure suggests to me that he will find success no matter the path or obstacles.

"Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes"
 
If I am correct you are not an ADAF officer. As a frequent ROTC poster, I believe you are AROTC, not even AFROTC. Army world AD and AF world AD are not the same. You can't place a blanket statement that all AD military branches are the same. I.E. AF PT is golfing without a cart! AF builds the runway 1st, O Club 2nd, Golf course 3rd. :shake:

5 yrs ago, our squadron commander (O5 up for O6) found himself in an awkward sexual situation on a Sat. night in his car...nothing illegal, except the fact he was married, and it wasn't his wife in this situation.

Monday morning there was a new commander, by Friday they were moved out of his on base house, and he was reporting 7 days later to a new base. Needless to say he wasn't picked up for O6.

That is the modern military. I don't know why you assume in the AF that there are different standards. He wasn't the 1st commander that lost their job over extra-marital affairs. I can count on my fingers and toes, plus some of Bullets phalanges too the amount of officers that were given the door because of pushing the envelope regarding personal sexual relations, and I am not talking homosexual.

Seriously, can you say Petraeus! The guys career ended because of a personal relationship. It was an affair. She did not work for him. Apple wouldn't care, but when you have a TS clearance, they care. Have you filled out TS clearance paperwork yet? Trust me, it goes back to the day you were born. OP's DS had a UPT slot, he has a TS clearance. They interview people before signing off. Just like Petraeus, they care about their personal life.

It is real life, and if you think that sexual relationships in the ADAF don't matter at all, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. Titling it to you might be an issue, but trust me, I can get it for you. Believe that, and I have another piece of property to sell you in FL., it is a little swampy, but trust me.

Welcome to the real military mbitr.

It is ironic regarding your post. Many posters desire to go SA to live the AD life. Your position is the AD life is not like the SA world. I totally disagree. Our DS is at UPT right now, living in the Q's, paying for it (BAH). Guess what? He had to acknowledge and give permission for unannounced room inspections. He is an ADAF O1.

He didn't have that when he lived in his college dorms as an AFROTC cadet.

Live in AF base housing, they can leave you nasty grams for your lawn. Multiple nasty grams and the commander is informed.

That is the real AF military. Sorry to burst your bubble.

It also explains why many ADAF members move off base as soon as they can.

IMPO, this was not about a tie, or a class being missed. It was about the GF.

If I was to be brutally honest, I wonder why on earth they did this. I can't see how any C1C would risk this their last semester, unless they wanted out. As others have stated this issue has always been addressed multiple times every yr. He know the huge risk he was undertaking the moment they slid under the sheets. He had 3 1/2 yrs of being warned. He gets a monthly stipend, enough to pay out of pocket for a hotel. As a C1C he probably had a car too, to drive an "visit" her at the hotel for a couple of hrs.

Sorry, bigdog, but that is the question in my mind. Also, sorry, but as an AF wife of 21 yrs, and a Mom of an O1, with a GF that I expect to be our Daughter In law, I would have issues with her decision too. In every relationship, someone has to be the sound voice.

Had to say it, not from a judging factor, but from a Mom factor. IMPHO, she is also culpable for his diis-enrollment. I would want to know why she risked it all. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see this is not allowed at the AFA. She risked his career too. JMPO.

You're right. I'm not an active duty Air Force officer. I am an Army ROTC cadet. I was also enlisted for six years and spent a chunk of that seeing lovely places like Fallujah and Mosul. I respect your right to disagree with me, but please don't demean me by saying I have no clue what military life is like without even knowing my background. Again, I'm not saying his dismissal was unjustified. I'm saying that the type of restrictions we impose on these cadets isn't in line with the way we live in today's military. Airman Snuffy can have guests in his barracks room, so why should we treat his future LT like a child?

OP, something else you may want to have your son look into is whether he even needs to disclose his time at the Academy to future employers. Those who receive entry level discharges typically don't on the enlisted side, but I have no clue how that will work for him. Obviously it'll come up somehow, but if he completes his degree somewhere else he could stick that on his resume and have a better shot at bringing up his time there in the most favorable way. Not that four years of AFA education is something to avoid discussing, even without the degree.
 
If he has completed set credit hours for aero engineer degree, why is he not getting his diploma? I can see you may not commission but what about the said earned degree?

great questions. bueller? bueller? anyone? anyone?

There is a court case from 2008 where a USCGA cadet sued to receive his diploma, having exceeded the educational requirements for a Bachelor of Science degree.

The USCGA disagreed, and the cadet was unsuccessful in getting it. The USCGA's argument centered on what the degree represented, much more than just academics. And to receive the degree, military, conduct, and physical fitness standards must be met to be awarded the degree.

The court case is referenced in this forum in a post by me, but the link at the DRB (Discharge Review Board) no longer works. I'll try to find it again, it involved a 1/c from the Class of 2005 but wasn't decided until 2008.

http://boards.law.af.mil/CGboards.htm
 
Excellent post Luigi, this is helpful stuff. I know of people who have taken similar steps and the findings were similar to this.

Folks, can we just stay on topic and not on each other? :redface:

This post should be helpful for the OP, so that he can understand his options going forward. While the SA's do a great job of attracting young people, they don't provide much in the way of support when things don't work out and what people are sharing here is a sort of informal institutional knowledge that helps to fill in the gaps.

There is a court case from 2008 where a USCGA cadet sued to receive his diploma, having exceeded the educational requirements for a Bachelor of Science degree.

The USCGA disagreed, and the cadet was unsuccessful in getting it. The USCGA's argument centered on what the degree represented, much more than just academics. And to receive the degree, military, conduct, and physical fitness standards must be met to be awarded the degree.

The court case is referenced in this forum in a post by me, but the link at the DRB (Discharge Review Board) no longer works. I'll try to find it again, it involved a 1/c from the Class of 2005 but wasn't decided until 2008.

http://boards.law.af.mil/CGboards.htm
 
Again, I'm not saying his dismissal was unjustified. I'm saying that the type of restrictions we impose on these cadets isn't in line with the way we live in today's military. Airman Snuffy can have guests in his barracks room, so why should we treat his future LT like a child?

First off, thank you for your service.

Second, from your military experience, I'm a little suprised at your sentiment about keeping the cadet area of the AFA as a restricted area. We're you allowed unannounced overnight visitors in your barracks while you were going through basic? This is the equivalent of basic for these cadets (albiet a very Loooong basic), 4 years of training intended to get these young men and women prepared to become the future leaders of our military.

Now, is this treating this young men and women a little differenty than the active force and Airman Snuffy? Well, Airman Snuffy also has the pleaseure of having his room randomly inspected if he's living in the dorms (done a few of those myself), he's NOT supposed to have overnight guest in those dorms, and he is also told that he has to follow some rules while living in those dorms. So yes, having restictions for cadets and their living conditions is TOTALLY in line with restrictions we put on others in today's military. It's called discipline and good order.
 
I'm guessing there are infrequent occasions of cadets "pussyfootin'" around in their rooms in Vandy or Sijan where the cadets are caught - um, red handed. How are these infractions handled? (Just curious - maybe for a different thread?)

As a parent, I am grateful that the cadet area around the Tzo is indeed a Restricted Area. With so many kooks out there, and so many ppl who dislike, misunderstand, or just plain loath, the military and all it stands for, the fact that outsiders are restricted, at least somewhat, is re-assuring to me. Can you imagine General MacArthur having an "overnight guest" at West Point?

The most shocking thing to me is that this young man was a firstie. Ready to step off into a great career, flying upside down with this hair on fire. The dream of so many young men and women, and let's face it, he took the slot of someone who might not have flaunted the rules.

-----

Question for the OP: what was the reaction of the bride-to-be's family?
 
The most shocking thing to me is that this young man was a firstie.
Perhaps the biggest shock should be how this young man managed to make it until 22 days before graduation without being disenrolled for other issues. How many demerits did he have?
 
As always, threads go off the rails.

What the circumstances are, or are not really isn't the issue right now.

He is gone.

MPO, we need to really stress to bigdog that they need to get in front of this now financially.

Even if he is not required to payback the cost of the education. I am pretty sure he took that starter loan.

Does anyone know of a cadet that didn't take it?

The fine print, jumps that interest rate to @20% if they leave prior to their commitment owed.

35K. @20% and you are looking at a huge, huge repayment, especially if they will not award the degree, because now they will have to pay to attend another college.

He can obviously opt to declare bankruptcy to rid that debt, but if I am correct, it will stay on his credit for 7 yrs. That means employment opportunities will be impacted, getting an apt/home will be impacted.

I don't think the OP's DS has yet to fathom that the cost is much higher than just the cost of AFA. He can actually be 175K in debt before he receives his diploma from another school. Assume 125K for AFA, 35K for starter loan, 10-20K for diploma.

I hope his GF really, really, really loves him because if he does propose the only ring he will be able to afford is out of a bubble gum machine.

I hope he really, really, really loves her because like Gojira has posted it will be on his mind seeing their FB pictures, their posts discussing their dollar ride at UPT, etc., knowing that could have been his life if not for that 1 night.
 
Can you imagine General MacArthur having an "overnight guest" at West Point?

No, but maybe Cadet MacArthur.

Truth is, this stuff happens at every academy. Often cadets and midshipmen get away with it. Sometimes they don't. If they don't, they can generally expect to be kicked out.
 
Even if he is not required to payback the cost of the education. I am pretty sure he took that starter loan.

Does anyone know of a cadet that didn't take it?

The fine print, jumps that interest rate to @20% if they leave prior to their commitment owed.

35K. @20% and you are looking at a huge, huge repayment, especially if they will not award the degree, because now they will have to pay to attend another college.

He can obviously opt to declare bankruptcy to rid that debt, but if I am correct, it will stay on his credit for 7 yrs. That means employment opportunities will be impacted, getting an apt/home will be impacted.

Of the people I know who were kicked out of the Academy or shortly thereafter, none saw their USAA rate jump up. Whether it's because they didn't catch it or decided not to do further damage to the person, I don't know.
 
And assuming they didn't buy a car with it and just held onto it for after graduation or investments, they can simply pay it back lump sum.
 
I believe DFAS debt is not dischargable in bankruptcy. That is what we were told.
 
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