Service Selection

[justdoit19]

For many years, the Naval Academy has seldom released how many midshipmen got their first choice. They usually phrase it as you have - how many got their first or second choice, lumping those two choices together in order to get an impressive percentage like 90%.

Let's think about that for a moment. Let's take a graduating class of 1,000 (usually it's a bit higher). That means that over 100 midshipmen get their third choice or worse. That is not an insignificant number.

More importantly, one cannot dismiss what it means to get your second choice. It's not as if you're going into an ice cream parlor, looking forward to chocolate chip ice cream, only to find out that it's not available. There are lots of other flavors, however. You might get vanilla instead - or maybe you'll get cookie dough ice cream. You're going to get ice cream and it's not that big of a deal. You'll probably be satisfied. It's highly unlikely that you're going to walk away deeply disappointed.

The service communities can vary quite a bit, however. If a midshipman's first choice is Navy Pilot and he/she ends up with their second choice, Surface Warfare Officer - that's no small matter. Zipping between the clouds at nearly the speed of sound, delivering ordnance, perfecting one's air combat maneuvering (i.e. dogfighting) couldn't possibly be farther away from lumbering through the ocean at 25 knots and serving as Officer of the Deck. The difference between the first and second choice couldn't possibly be starker. They are nothing alike! It's not like the difference between chocolate chip ice cream and vanilla. It's more like the difference between chocolate chip ice cream and brocolli.

I think it's rather disingenuous, and certainly misleading, to lump 1st and 2nd choices together as if it's no big deal. It speaks volumes that the academy is loath to break it down by, how many got their 1st choice, how many got their 2nd choice, etc.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I've long been a critic of how the Naval Academy handles Service Assignment, which used to be called Service Selection - that, alone, speaks volumes. [getting off soapbox]

I confident I’ve seen a graphic of first choice, etc. pretty sure posted on the SAF. Cannot for anything find it!

 

[MidCakePa]

A phrase we see here often — and surely shows up on many application essays and in many BGO interviews — is this: “I want to be part of something bigger than myself.”

Another one: “I want to serve my country.”

Meanwhile, many here advise this: “Go to USNA because you want to become a commissioned officer first, and [insert MOS here] second.”

I understand that everyone has a preference, and I understand the disappointment and frustration that may come from not getting that preference. But consider again that first phrase, and then the second. The needs of the Navy (and Marine Corps) come first. That’s what you agree to when you accept the appointment. And where you’re assigned is where you’re needed, even if it’s not your first choice.

That, in a nutshell, is the meaning of service and being part of something bigger than yourself.

 

[usna1985]

It would be great if every mid could get his or her first choice. Unfortunately, it’s not possible. Under the old system (my day) it was all based on class rank, other than nuke and med school, which were pre-selected. We can all debate whether “selection” or “assignment” is the better approach. Either way, not everyone got or gets his or her first choice. Or second.

 

[FutureAcademyDad?]

All this angst makes me happy that DD1 got her first choice by early-selecting subs.

 

[Lucy]

Makes me happy that my DS just wanted to be a naval officer.

 

[Memphis9489]

It would be great if every mid could get his or her first choice. Unfortunately, it’s not possible.

I think it actually is!

Obviously, if a midshipman is not physically qualified, they may not enter certain communities. A color-blind midshipman, for instance, cannot be a pilot no matter how badly he/she may want to.

I graduated in '79. I guess there must have been quotas of some sort - but we never heard any discussion of it and I don't recall anybody claiming to be impacted by some quota that resulted in them having to pursue something other than their first choice. If somebody was physically qualified to fly and that was their first choice - they were very, very likely to get that at Service Selection. If they didn't, it would be news that would ripple throughout the Brigade. "Did you hear about the guy in 8th company who wanted to fly and he had to go SWO?" That would not even be a thing worthy of discussion these days - mostly because it's so common.

In my day, anybody could be a Marine. There was no Leatherneck to test if you were "good enough."

Let's say the Naval Academy needs to assign 134 midshipmen into subs but only 110 have volunteered and are qualified. They need 24 more. They create a list of potential candidates who have it ranked 2nd or 3rd on their preference card and twist their arm to change their preferences. This is what is colloquially known as "voluntold." I say get the needed 24 from some other commissioning program and leave it at that.

Let's say there is a limit to the number of pilot slots. Let's say it's 200. But what if 237 midshipmen have that as their first choice and are physically qualified? I say give all 237 their first choice and cut 37 pilot slots from other commissioning programs. The "needs of the Navy" are still being satisfied.

What I'm saying is: There has to be some perk for getting selected for and graduating from the Navy's premiere commissioning program

I'm convinced the Navy would see a measurable uptick in retention if more midshipmen were given their first choice. There will be plenty of opportunities for the Navy to disappoint these young servicemembers in the future. Maybe they won't get assigned the ship of their choice. Maybe they will not get assigned to fly the aircraft they want. Maybe they won't be based where they want. Maybe they may get passed over for a promotion or not selected for command. Maybe their cruise will be extended by 2 months. But, disappointing them at the very beginning of their career is probably getting off to a bad start.

 

[Heatherg21]

I think it actually is!

Obviously, if a midshipman is not physically qualified, they may not enter certain communities. A color-blind midshipman, for instance, cannot be a pilot no matter how badly he/she may want to.

I graduated in '79. I guess there must have been quotas of some sort - but we never heard any discussion of it and I don't recall anybody claiming to be impacted by some quota that resulted in them having to pursue something other than their first choice. If somebody was physically qualified to fly and that was their first choice - they were very, very likely to get that at Service Selection. If they didn't, it would be news that would ripple throughout the Brigade. "Did you hear about the guy in 8th company who wanted to fly and he had to go SWO?" That would not even be a thing worthy of discussion these days - mostly because it's so common.

In my day, anybody could be a Marine. There was no Leatherneck to test if you were "good enough."

Let's say the Naval Academy needs to assign 134 midshipmen into subs but only 110 have volunteered and are qualified. They need 24 more. They create a list of potential candidates who have it ranked 2nd or 3rd on their preference card and twist their arm to change their preferences. This is what is colloquially known as "voluntold." I say get the needed 24 from some other commissioning program and leave it at that.

Let's say there is a limit to the number of pilot slots. Let's say it's 200. But what if 237 midshipmen have that as their first choice and are physically qualified? I say give all 237 their first choice and cut 37 pilot slots from other commissioning programs. The "needs of the Navy" are still being satisfied.

What I'm saying is: There has to be some perk for getting selected for and graduating from the Navy's premiere commissioning program

I'm convinced the Navy would see a measurable uptick in retention if more midshipmen were given their first choice. There will be plenty of opportunities for the Navy to disappoint these young servicemembers in the future. Maybe they won't get assigned the ship of their choice. Maybe they will not get assigned to fly the aircraft they want. Maybe they won't be based where they want. Maybe they may get passed over for a promotion or not selected for command. Maybe their cruise will be extended by 2 months. But, disappointing them at the very beginning of their career is probably getting off to a bad start.

This. I tell my DS every day that just because he wants and potentially is assigned pilot doesn’t mean he makes it through. Or that he gets the airframe he envisions. Semper Gumby needs to be prevalent.

 

[Don't Give Up the Ship]

How does OCS work for potential Pilots/NFOs? A person graduates from college, applies for OCS/Flight and is guaranteed a spot (if medically qualified and pass flight school)?

 

[Capt MJ]

How does OCS work for potential Pilots/NFOs? A person graduates from college, applies for OCS/Flight and is guaranteed a spot (if medically qualified and pass flight school)?

Yes, generally speaking, OCS is a place where you know what officer community you are going into before you report. Much will depend on the needs of the Navy (when does it not?!), as OCS class sizes vary with what the manpower analysts say is the need for a given FY, once all the heads have been accounted for coming out of USNA, NROTC and other commissioning pipelines. The officer recruiter works with prospective OCs to integrate their desires with NOTN, and coordinates all required pre-reporting physicals and other sssessments.

As an OCS grad, I remember going to a MEPS to do a pre-comm physical, being interviewed in s formal setting, taking some kind of test but not the ASVAB, plus the requisite pile of paper forms. I knew exactly what mydesignatpr would be should I successfully complete.

 

[usna1985]

It would be great if every mid could get his or her first choice. Unfortunately, it’s not possible.

I think it actually is!

I meant it's not possible under the current program / process. Agree that it COULD be possible. However, the USN has confronted this issue for decades and - for whatever reason -- has decided not to change the current system.

In my day, anybody could be a Marine. There was no Leatherneck to test if you were "good enough."

In my day (not that much later), yes and no. There was a strict 16 2/3% of the class quote for USMC for our class. So, anyone who stood high enough in the class could select USMC, but no one who selected once that quota was filled.

However, it's my understanding that this is one of the main reasons they changed the approach, initially for USMC and then for all. In my day, when NFO billets were scarce (due to lack of PRK / LASIK), the USMC told people: If you join the USMC and want to fly, you can fly. So more than a few people picked USMC solely to be able to fly, with little to no interest in being a Marine. Many times, that didn't go well. It was also my understanding that, even among the non-aviators, USNA performance at TBS wasn't very strong overall. The USMC believed this was due to the fact that those selecting USMC weren't properly prepared, motivated, etc. Hence the introduction of Bulldog, which later became Leatherneck, as a "screening"program (really, for both parties).

A final thought is that the quotas MAY be in place to ensure spread across accession sources for each community. Not sure about that and, a handful of slots here or there shouldn't significantly impact such a goal, if there is one.

I would like to think -- and hope -- that the current process is better at matching mids to a career field for which they have both desire and aptitude, so that they will be happier and more successful in the long run. However, I have no idea if that is in fact occurring.

 

[Kierkegaard]

The only people I can remember seeing who were actually disappointed on service assignment day were those who put in for of the communities that only take a small number each year—think SEALs, EOD, and IWC. And those folks knew it was an uphill battle even for the most qualified among us. There were probably a few who wanted to be Marines who didn’t. They take 25% of the class today and it’s always a very popular choice. Anyone I know who really wanted to be a pilot at least got their typical second choice of NFO and was still happy. (Seems like half the people who are into aviation don’t care about being pilots as much as they are drawn to the mission set and culture of the community).

 

[Don't Give Up the Ship]

Example: For Class of 2023, approximately 30+ went to EOD Cruise and will likely put EOD as #1 choice. DS reports that only 16 will get EOD. About 50%.

 

[Trackgirl1999]

Navy, nah. Oorah!!

 

[Memphis9489]

Anyone I know who really wanted to be a pilot at least got their typical second choice of NFO and was still happy. (Seems like half the people who are into aviation don’t care about being pilots as much as they are drawn to the mission set and culture of the community).

I have a hard time believing that it’s common for somebody who wants to be a pilot is equally satisfied with being an NFO - as if simply being in a cockpit of an aircraft is on par with being the pilot of that aircraft.

I think many people who are “happy” with something other than their first choice are engaging in what I call “healthy rationalization.” One can either complain, be angry and pout or accept that they will not be what they hoped they would be. They convince themselves that they’re just as happy with their second choice because there is no healthy way to proceed without emotionally changing gears.

I think the current system of Service ASSIGNMENT, where the midshipmen are screened more thoroughly, ostensibly with the intent of placing a graduate in the best community for their aptitudes despite their preferences, is an example of the “perfect” being the enemy of the “good.”

My sense is that finding that “perfect fit” for a midshipman who prefers to do something else does not quantitatively translate to a better qualified and happier service member - and that it probably negatively impacts retention. They are undervaluing the power of passion in how somebody ultimately performs at their job - and are overvaluing what they assume would be a better community based on a rather cursory evaluation of that midshipman’s aptitudes.

 

[Memphis9489]

Example: For Class of 2023, approximately 30+ went to EOD Cruise and will likely put EOD as #1 choice. DS reports that only 16 will get EOD. About 50%.

Some communities, by their very nature, have a very limited number of midshipmen who can be assigned in that community. The midshipmen competing for those limited spots usually understand this from the beginning and also understand that their second choice can essentially be their “first” choice. There may be disappointment but seldom surprise.

Having said that, just because the “quota” is 16, I think they can be flexible enough to, maybe, assign 20 to EOD if there are four more midshipmen equally as qualified as the 16th midshipman selected. Take 4 EOD spots away from other commissioning programs!

You can stop reading here, but I’d like to share a story that I’m familiar with that happened with the Medical Corps selectees for the class of 2013. That year, the Navy was only going to permit 10 to go into the Medical Corps. It wasn’t a quota. It was a limit. Unlike the other communities, if nobody wanted to go into the Medical Corps from the Naval Academy, the Navy would’ve been fine with that. They’re not going to force anybody to be a doctor. They’ll get their doctors from somewhere else. The academy picked 10 and an alternate. Very competitive! Typically, the alternate doesn’t go into the Medical Corps because they usually don’t even try to get into medical school once they find out that they’re an alternate. Why should they waste their time and money applying to medical schools if the only way the Navy will permit them to go to medical school (even if accepted!) is if one of the 10 selectees drops out? That almost never happens. That year, the alternate was assigned SWO. Yet, this midshipman did apply to medical school - and got accepted. That midshipman put in a special request to have his service selection reconsidered in light of the fact that he did get accepted into medical school. To the Navy’s credit, they raised the “limit” to 11 and allowed him to go into the Medical Corps. Where did that extra spot come from? Perhaps somebody, somewhere, maybe in some NROTC program, or some civilian student applying for the HPSP or USUHS scholarship, did not get accepted in order
to open up that one spot for that midshipman at the Naval Academy.

In think that’s the way it should work!

 

[ders_dad]

I understand that OCS is the “valve” Navy can use to increase or decrease new JOs from year to year. But will Navy “rob” NROTC service assignments to make them available to commissioning USNA grads? I suppose the total numbers are not as set in stone as they seem but I am wondering if USNA grads are given preference over NROTC grads when it comes to service assignment.

 

[Dragomir]

Some communities, by their very nature, have a very limited number of midshipmen who can be assigned in that community. The midshipmen competing for those limited spots usually understand this from the beginning and also understand that their second choice can essentially be their “first” choice. There may be disappointment but seldom surprise.

Having said that, just because the “quota” is 16, I think they can be flexible enough to, maybe, assign 20 to EOD if there are four more midshipmen equally as qualified as the 16th midshipman selected. Take 4 EOD spots away from other commissioning programs!

You can stop reading here, but I’d like to share a story that I’m familiar with that happened with the Medical Corps selectees for the class of 2013. That year, the Navy was only going to permit 10 to go into the Medical Corps. It wasn’t a quota. It was a limit. Unlike the other communities, if nobody wanted to go into the Medical Corps from the Naval Academy, the Navy would’ve been fine with that. They’re not going to force anybody to be a doctor. They’ll get their doctors from somewhere else. The academy picked 10 and an alternate. Very competitive! Typically, the alternate doesn’t go into the Medical Corps because they usually don’t even try to get into medical school once they find out that they’re an alternate. Why should they waste their time and money applying to medical schools if the only way the Navy will permit them to go to medical school (even if accepted!) is if one of the 10 selectees drops out? That almost never happens. That year, the alternate was assigned SWO. Yet, this midshipman did apply to medical school - and got accepted. That midshipman put in a special request to have his service selection reconsidered in light of the fact that he did get accepted into medical school. To the Navy’s credit, they raised the “limit” to 11 and allowed him to go into the Medical Corps. Where did that extra spot come from? Perhaps somebody, somewhere, maybe in some NROTC program, or some civilian student applying for the HPSP or USUHS scholarship, did not get accepted in order
to open up that one spot for that midshipman at the Naval Academy.

In think that’s the way it should work!

How does this "opening" of spots of work? If the limit is 10 then why would it matter if someone from NROTC or OCS got their application dropped? Wouldn't the limit still be exceeded if an 11th midshipman from the Naval Academy got accepted?

I don't mean to be rude, just curious at how this all works.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

I understand that OCS is the “valve” Navy can use to increase or decrease new JOs from year to year. But will Navy “rob” NROTC service assignments to make them available to commissioning USNA grads? I suppose the total numbers are not as set in stone as they seem but I am wondering if USNA grads are given preference over NROTC grads when it comes to service assignment.

If the limit is 10 then why would it matter if someone from NROTC or OCS got their application dropped? Wouldn't the limit still be exceeded if an 11th midshipman from the Naval Academy got accepted?

These questions are getting deep into the weeds , and unlikely that anyone here really knows the ins and out of NavPers or whatever its called now.

There are "limits" to USNA and NROTC accessions, and if the acceptance "yield" is too high, or retention through 4 years is higher than anticipated, I would presume that means a reduction in OCS intake. Similarly, if yield or retention is low, OCS accession is increased. I also suspect it very unlikely that Navy hits the numbers exactly -- some years they are over, some under, but over the years they have gotten good at coming close,

When it comes to Service Assignments, it is easier to control with some precision -- you say yes or no until the desire quota is met. That quota is set with desired end strength objectives in mind. It is my understanding that assignment quotas are fixed and allocated between USNA and NROTC, and both given a relatively equal chance at placing Ensigns in their desire Service Selection.

Memphis description of the Midshipman getting med school is probably the exception to the rule -- I would hope Navy would have simply added one more to the quota than pull a medical school assignment from a NROTC grad. (Frankly, I have no idea if Med School is even available for NROTC or OCS --with respect to OCS, probably unlikely -- back in the day, most Dr /Nurse/Dentist/JAG and other specialty staff accessions came in through Officer Indoctrination School (OIS) which was an abbreviated form of OCS at Newport).

 

[Capt MJ]

How does this "opening" of spots of work? If the limit is 10 then why would it matter if someone from NROTC or OCS got their application dropped? Wouldn't the limit still be exceeded if an 11th midshipman from the Naval Academy got accepted?

I don't mean to be rude, just curious at how this all works.

The number of officers at every pay grade is capped, by law. Big Navy’s manpower management people divvy up the endstrength numbers among each officer community based on needs of the Navy. They predictively model accession intake planning numbers, attrition, etc.

Navy medicine gets the majority of its doctors through direct accession programs via civilian medical schools, some via USUHS medical school and “grows” only a handful from USNA and NROTC. Every year a decision is made as to how many accession slots will be made available. It does get down to counting onesies and twosies at some point.

 

[noco]

Just out of curiosity, 1/C 's final selections were due last week. How does the process work now? Do certain warfare communities go down the first choice lists and grab 1/C who put it down first, or do they go by OOM and place those mids where they choose first? or is it something different? How do they decide who gets their first choice, second choice, etc...